Hilbert's Hotel

Diskussionsforum zur Unendlichkeit: Theismus, Atheismus, Primzahlen, Unsterblichkeit, das Universum...
Discussing Infinity: theism and atheism, prime numbers, immortality, cosmology, philosophy...

Gamestudio Links
Zorro Links
Newest Posts
Blobsculptor tools and objects download here
by NeoDumont. 03/28/24 03:01
Issue with Multi-Core WFO Training
by aliswee. 03/24/24 20:20
Why Zorro supports up to 72 cores?
by Edgar_Herrera. 03/23/24 21:41
Zorro Trader GPT
by TipmyPip. 03/06/24 09:27
VSCode instead of SED
by 3run. 03/01/24 19:06
AUM Magazine
Latest Screens
The Bible Game
A psychological thriller game
SHADOW (2014)
DEAD TASTE
Who's Online Now
5 registered members (Nymphodora, AndrewAMD, TipmyPip, Quad, Imhotep), 847 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
sakolin, rajesh7827, juergen_wue, NITRO_FOREVER, jack0roses
19043 Registered Users
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rating: 2
Page 48 of 67 1 2 46 47 48 49 50 66 67
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Lukas] #241858
12/19/08 12:18
12/19/08 12:18
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
J
JibbSmart Offline
Expert
JibbSmart  Offline
Expert
J

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
Quote:
"but there must be a reason for the Big Bang"
The big bang needn't have a cause.
but God does? that was your argument before.
Quote:
The claim that a "god" lives "outside causality" contradicts itself. According to the claim that god influences us and we can get punished by him, events in the real world can cause things in your fantasy world (e.g. make god angry) and the other way round (e.g. genocide in the old testament). So events that happen outside causality need a cause, which includes the creation of god. So there can't be something "outside causality" that influences our world. quod erat demonstrandum
no. i don't live in my pool, but i can interfere with it. the Big Bang wasn't "within" causality (as you said yourself it didn't need a cause) yet it interfered with everything. just to clarify: i meant that God's existence is beyond the bounds of causality; not that He is trapped outside of it, and i don't think that implication was made.

and yes, i did say i was done here, but that was with specific regard to my discussion with Tiles, as we were both going in circles.

but i don't think i need to say anymore. we'll find ourselves in the same position, Lukas, if we keep going at this rate.

julz


Formerly known as JulzMighty.
I made KarBOOM!
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: JibbSmart] #241864
12/19/08 13:52
12/19/08 13:52
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 658
germany
Tiles Offline
User
Tiles  Offline
User

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 658
germany
Big Bang is neither inside causality nor is it outside causality. It MADE causality. And it IS MADE by causality. It is both at the same time, a Paradoxon. Because without time no causality. And Big Bang started room and time. Means there is no before. Which means there cannot be somebody before the Big Bang. Not in a room because there is no room, nor in a time, because there is no time before the Big Bang.

Last edited by Tiles; 12/19/08 13:54.

trueSpace 7.6, A7 commercial
Free gamegraphics, freewaregames http://www.reinerstilesets.de
Die Community rund um Spiele-Toolkits http://www.clickzone.de
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Tiles] #241870
12/19/08 16:01
12/19/08 16:01
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline
Senior Expert
Dan Silverman  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Quote:
all i'm saying is God may have caused the Big Bang.


And I say that the Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) caused the Big Bang ... that he/it is the first cause of all things and the only one, true uncaused cause. Now, please prove to me that the Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) is NOT the cause?




Professional 2D, 3D and Real-Time 3D Content Creation:
HyperGraph Studios
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Tiles] #241878
12/19/08 17:00
12/19/08 17:00
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,977
Frankfurt
jcl Offline

Chief Engineer
jcl  Offline

Chief Engineer

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,977
Frankfurt
Originally Posted By: Tiles
Big Bang is neither inside causality nor is it outside causality. It MADE causality. And it IS MADE by causality. It is both at the same time, a Paradoxon. Because without time no causality. And Big Bang started room and time. Means there is no before. Which means there cannot be somebody before the Big Bang. Not in a room because there is no room, nor in a time, because there is no time before the Big Bang.

This is one theory. However meanwhile many physicists tend to the opinion that there WAS a cause of the Big Bang, and the Big Bang was not the beginning of time.

One model that is based on String Theory and was developed by Gabriele Veneziano, describes the Big Bang as a collision of 4-dimensional membranes. The intersection of the membranes is our universe, which is just one of many universes embedded in an infinite and eternal 10-dimensional space. While it seems difficult to find information about events before the Big Bang or outside our universe, it's not entirely impossible.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: jcl] #241882
12/19/08 17:25
12/19/08 17:25
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,043
Germany
Lukas Offline

Programmer
Lukas  Offline

Programmer

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,043
Germany
@JulzMighty: But you and your pool are both in causality. I just sayd that there can't be something outside causality that influences in the world and the other way round.

@jcl: I think there are not 10, but 11 dimensions in the latest String Theory (The "M-Theory"). I think this theory is interesting but it makes new questions: We don't know what exacty the cause for the collision is. A collision requires movement and thus there need to be some natural laws for the moving p-branes. As far as I understood each of the universes can have other natural laws, so we can't assume that these laws are the same as the ones of our universe.
But this theory supports the theory that live origined by chance because there are many universes smile

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Lukas] #241888
12/19/08 18:47
12/19/08 18:47
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
A
AlbertoT Offline
Serious User
AlbertoT  Offline
Serious User
A

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
Our intuition claims that the existance of matter entails a creator

This is so rooted in our DNA that even the atheist scientists ,in the past assumed that our universe must not have a start

From this point of view the big bang is, despite the alternative theories, such as the multi universe , a ace in the hands of the religious people

After the announcement of the big bang theory, a Pope officialy declared
" Finally science meets religion "

The point is that for modern quantum physics " something must exist "
In other words the existance of matter is not that mistery anymore

Even though none of us can seriously grasp such claim, it is supported by experimental evidences

Last edited by AlbertoT; 12/19/08 19:15.
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: AlbertoT] #241905
12/19/08 22:28
12/19/08 22:28
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 868
Chicago, IL
Dooley Offline
User
Dooley  Offline
User

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 868
Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: Lukas
So events that happen outside causality need a cause, which includes the creation of god. So there can't be something "outside causality" that influences our world.


Originally Posted By: Lukas

The big bang needn't have a cause.


This is the problem. God requires a cause, but the Big Bang doesn't... That's not fair. Your ignoring your own argument, applying it to God, but allowing the Big Bang to slip through. That a double standard.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dooley] #241908
12/19/08 22:39
12/19/08 22:39
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,043
Germany
Lukas Offline

Programmer
Lukas  Offline

Programmer

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,043
Germany
Dooley, but why invent for a thing that doesn't need a cause an other thing (god) that doesn't need a cause?

My statemant that god needs a god was from JulzMighty's assumement that everything needs a cause but that god lives "outside causality" and doesn't need a proof and I disproved it by showing its contradictions.

As Tiles said, the big bang is the BEGIN of cause and doesn't need a cause.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Lukas] #241909
12/19/08 22:46
12/19/08 22:46
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 353
A
amy Offline
Senior Member
amy  Offline
Senior Member
A

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 353
nothing -> god -> universe
nothing -> universe

It simply is one unknown less. At least there is evidence for the presence of the universe. Something that can´t really be claimed for a God of any kind. smile

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Lukas] #241911
12/19/08 23:02
12/19/08 23:02
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
A
AlbertoT Offline
Serious User
AlbertoT  Offline
Serious User
A

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
Originally Posted By: Lukas
.

As Tiles said, the big bang is the BEGIN of cause and doesn't need a cause.


Well ,the big bang by itself entails a start thus a creator
As I said the catholic church was very happy about this theory

The point is
Can a quantistic random fluctuation be the supposed " cause " of the big bang ?

Apparentely , yes according to quantum mechanics,at least in theory

Page 48 of 67 1 2 46 47 48 49 50 66 67

Moderated by  jcl, Lukas, old_bill, Spirit 

Kompaktes W�rterbuch des UnendlichenCompact Dictionary of the Infinite


Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1