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Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: PHeMoX] #241692
12/18/08 07:21
12/18/08 07:21
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Chicago, IL
Dooley Offline OP
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Dooley  Offline OP
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Read my post again, I don't think you payed attention.

I acknowledged that it shared stories, and even many beliefs with the Bible. This does not mean it shares the Bibles inconsistencies.

It also doesn't mean that Muhammad just copied the Bible. That would be like saying Jesus was just copying Moses. The Bible, and the Quran both explain that God sent many messengers with many books to teach us. The fact that they share stories and beliefs is consistent with the whole concept of revelation.

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dooley] #241700
12/18/08 09:04
12/18/08 09:04
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WA, Australia
J
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@PHeMoX:
Quote:
This does not mean it shares the Bibles inconsistencies.
especially since the Quran (from what i've gathered here) teaches that the Bible had been tampered with. as a Bible-believing Christian i don't believe the Quran over the Bible, but i'm just saying that the Quran has reasons for similarity. explicit reasons. describing the similarities as evidence of the Quran being based on the Bible (especially saying "errors included") is a gross generalisation.

julz


Formerly known as JulzMighty.
I made KarBOOM!
Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: JibbSmart] #241731
12/18/08 13:22
12/18/08 13:22
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It has nothing to do with gross generalizations when stories are this similar. In fact, compared to older religions, there's a lot of similarity in the stories, basically it's possible to track down what story came from which older religion. It really has nothing to do with tampering, it was just copied.

Popular, hence interesting enough to be included.


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Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: JibbSmart] #241739
12/18/08 15:43
12/18/08 15:43
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ok I'm Arabic and Muslim so i know everything (i hope) about Quran.

Christians says that the Bible is true, and Muslims says that the Quran is true wink.

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: PHeMoX] #241819
12/19/08 06:18
12/19/08 06:18
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Dooley Offline OP
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Dooley  Offline OP
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It's certainly a valid point to bring up, but it doesn't prove or disprove anything. I could argue that because the Quran tells some of the same stories as the Bible - it therefore must be revealed by the same God.

This would be an equally invalid argument, even if the conclusion is true.

Actually, the Muhammad and the Quran are mentioned in the Bible, as a new 'song' which will be sent to the Arabs. Why would the Old Testament mention a revelation being sent to the Arabs? It is a Jewish book, they were not on good terms with Arabs.

This is a long one, so use the bathroom, get some coffee, and have a seat... smile

The coming of the Prophet Muhammad is foretold in the Bible. This can be demonstrated by going through verses of the Old Testament, that part of the Bible, which the Jewish Religion holds sacred, as well as the New Testament, which along with the Old Testament is held sacred by Christians. Though it may seem petty or unfair to seek to support one’s own religion through the books of others, this is not the case here. In fact, the Quran itself claims that the Torah and the Injeel, Arabic names for the books of Moses and Jesus respectively, contain mention of the coming of a last prophet, who will be known as 'Ahmed', a form of the name Muhammad.

1. Quran 7:157- “Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they find written with them in the Torah and the Gospel- he commands them for good ; and forbids them from evil..."

2. Quran 61:6- And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the 'Ahmed'. Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say, “ This is mere magic. “

Where are they then, the verses of the bible which mention Muhammad? This information, if found, would certainly strengthen the claim of the Quran.

"I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him."
(Deuteronomy 18:18-22)

These verses claim that a prophet was to come from among the "brothers" of the Israelites. It seems like he couldn't be a Jew, and must be from the line of Ishmael who was the brother of Isaac, the father of the Israelites. To add more evidence to this statement, here's a prophecy of Solomon which may point to this coming prophet…

"As for the foreigner who does not belong to your people Israel but has come from a distant land because of your name- for men will hear of your great name and your mighty hand and your outstretched arm-when he comes and prays toward this temple, then hear from heaven, your dwelling place, and do whatever the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your own people Israel, and may know that this house I have built bears your Name. (1 Kings 8:41-42)

A foreigner, ie non-jew, who would pray towards the temple in Jerusalem, this sounds a lot like the Prophet Muhammad. According to the earliest Islamic sources, the prophet Muhammad did, in fact pray towards Jerusalem.

Narrated Al Bara (bin Azib) When the Prophet came to Medina, he stayed first with his grandfathers or maternal uncles from Ansar. He offered his prayers facing Baitul-Maqdis (Jerusalem) for sixteen or seventeen months… (Sahih al-Bukhari vol.1 #39)

Let's continue to see if there are more references to this individual in the Bible. As you'll see in the following verses from the New Testament, this prophet was a distinct person, separate from Christ, and he was not John the Baptist.

Now this was John's testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, "I am not the Christ." They asked
him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?"
He said, "I am not."
"Are you the Prophet?"
He answered, "No." (John 1:19-21)

By the time of John the Baptist, this prophet had not yet arrived. He was a distinct individual, separate from Elijah, who was prophesied to return, separate from Christ, who would be Jesus. Even the Pharisees knew about the coming of this individual.

Now some Pharisees who had been sent questioned him, "Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?" (John 1:24-25)

Again 'the Prophet' is mentioned separately and distinctly from Elijah and Christ. It seems that Jesus himself may have been speaking about the same individual when he said the following…

"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. (John 16:12-14)

Notice that he describes the Spirit of truth in similar terms that God described the prophet like Moses in Deuteronomy as "I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him."

But where would this foreigner be from, if he's not a Jew? Here are a few verses, which may indicate his lineage, and possible place of residence.

"Song of Praise to the Lord Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise from the ends of the earth, you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it, you islands, and all who live in them. Let the desert and its towns raise their voices; let the settlements where Kedar lives rejoice." (Isaiah 42:10-11)

These verses are speaking of something to come. A new song could be many things, but here it is associated with the desert, and more specifically, the settlements where Kedar lives. If we knew what Kedar was, that might allow us to understand these verses more clearly.

Ishmael's Sons
This is the account of Abraham's son Ishmael, whom Sarah's maidservant, Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham. These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, (Genesis 25:12-13)

Kedar was, in fact the second son of the Prophet Ishmael, who was the son of Abraham. As we know, Abraham left Ishmael and his mother Hagar in the desert, and Ishmael’s descendants became the Arabs of Mecca, and the Arabian Peninsula.

The following excerpt from the Biography of the Prophet
Muhammad, explains the Arabian ties to Abraham.
Muhammad was born in Mecca (Makkah), Arabia, on Monday, 12 Rabi' Al-Awal (2 August A.D. 570). His mother, Aminah, was the daughter of Wahb Ibn 'Abdu Manaf of the Zahrah family. His father, Abdullah, was the son of Abdul Muttalib. His genealogy has been traced to the noble house of Ishmael, the son of Prophet Abraham in about the fortieth descent. (Biography of the Prophet Muhammad - Guilliame)

So far we have a lot of references from all over the Bible which may refer to the Prophet Muhammad. They do not mention him by name, nor is it 100% clear that they are even talking about the same individual. However, this is exactly the way the Old Testament described Jesus. It was only after Jesus came and fulfilled those prophecies that people understood who it was.

If Christians object that Muslims are taking these verses out of context and applying them arbitrarily on Muhammad, the Jews accused the Christians of the same thing. The Jews at the time of Jesus accused him of being a blasphemer, according to the Bible, but this never prevented Christians from following Jesus.

This also serves to explain why so many of the stories in the Bible are repeated in the Quran.

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dooley] #241821
12/19/08 06:43
12/19/08 06:43
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,838
take me down to the paradise c...
Cowabanga Offline
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Cowabanga  Offline
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First, can you speak arabic?

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Cowabanga] #241910
12/19/08 22:56
12/19/08 22:56
Joined: May 2005
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Chicago, IL
Dooley Offline OP
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No. Why?

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dooley] #242303
12/22/08 12:49
12/22/08 12:49
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Cowabanga Offline
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So okay! if you can't read Arabic so the translation isn't %100 correct, so if you want to put any line from Quran, ask someone knows Arabic, Because %50 of the these translated lines is incorrect.

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Cowabanga] #242695
12/25/08 07:41
12/25/08 07:41
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 868
Chicago, IL
Dooley Offline OP
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Dooley  Offline OP
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I only quoted 2 verses of the Quran... which one has a bad translation?

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dooley] #242699
12/25/08 08:54
12/25/08 08:54
Joined: Aug 2008
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take me down to the paradise c...
Cowabanga Offline
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Cowabanga  Offline
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The half of the first line, and all the second line.

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