Dan Silverman,

i enyojed reading your post because it shows that you have really thought about it, and finished these thoughts,
and that is meant as a compliment.
But let us go to the statements:

The complexity: I just tried to keep it as simply as possible,
and i have to say: This analogy is not from me,
it's a common statement for the crowds, and thats why it sounds like it was one - indeed , it is one.
The fact you mentioned was,if i understood you right:
"The so called holy books contain provable and unprovable statements, and if you test the testable statements, and all of them turn out to be wrong, then the untestable statements are having a very high chance of beeing false, too",
right ?
Yes, thats right, if you read it word by words,
but lets remember that these things are metaphors.
An example is the statement that jesus should have been able to walk over water -
but "water" in these times was a synonym for the existing law, which jesus have broken and made his own ideals and laws.
Because i'm not very interested in these holy books,
that is one of only very few examples i have.

-Proving things
Well, thats a big problem, because:
1. Only the dead can really prove if and which kind of afterlive is there
2. The Not-Existence of things is very hard to prove in science, example: Prove the non-existence of invisible kobolds that no one has ever seen ;-)

Number 1 leads to the conclusion that all the blind people who are not able to see god by themselves need other seeing people to tell them, very good example of yours by the way.
But who sees ? You have priests, medial persons or all that call themselves, you have holy books, and you have people that have been reanimated.
I tend to believe the last ones, only because they have been able to take a little look, perhaps only brain disfunction, but here the propability is the biggest.
Number 2 Leads to absolute tollerance in my opinion,
because i can't reallyprove that ANY religion is wrong.

But , beeing a pragmatist, i prefer to value religions by what they have bought to mankind - genocide in most cases, as you stated - look at my former post a little bit over the one you replied to, i guess we had the same conclusion, even with very different theories.

-The idea i like:
Yeah, i didn't statet that it was true, just that i like it,
and i like it, because any religion has a place in it,
and it leads to some tolerance.
Hey think about it - it may be not very likely in your opinion, but what if for example the christian religion was absoluteley true ? Then, we were the bad guys, because anyone who believed us that religion is unlogic, would burn in hell for that, and the crusades then would have rescued a lot of people from hell - a complete different port of view,
and remember : We cannot prove the opposite for sure ;-)

But where do you get that from? Where is "water" ever equated with "law"? Water, in the Bible as a symbol, often stands in for "people". This can be seen from the various passages where people (and especially armies) are likened to water. And, according to Jesus' words (or, at least those attributed to him) he said he did not come to break the law, but to fulfill it.

If we can start coming up with ANY idea we want ... if we can fill a word with ANY meaning, then there really is NO meaning and this, in my mind, only further proves my point.



Actually, no. Non-existence is the default stance. From there it is up to the person to prove that something exists. This is one reason that Atheists start with the assumption that there is no God. The default position is skepticism.



Though science can examine the claims and can test what was happening in the brain during these experiences.



I don't agree. The only source we have for the Christian God is the Christian holy book, the Bible. This book claims to make sense. It calls for reason. Yet its pages are lacking in both. As a result, the Christian viewpoint can be rejected on the basis of its holy book.

Heh! Its a fun discussion and all, so I hope you don't mind me disagreeing with you a bit.

Wa Alaykm Alsalam.

LOL! i'm sorry, i haven't read it completely.

just you need a better Quran translation

Nobody can speak about islam more than a scholar "since the prophet's death" so why not learning from one?
here's the website of one of our best scholars go there and learn by yourself,you'll find your answers
http://islam-qa.com

"Dooley"

There is ONLY ONE GOD , and his name is YHWH. And our messiah is Yehoshua.
Anything, religion , or person , who contradicts that stated above has been deceived by the devil. So if your god is another god , you are wrong. If Jesus is not your messia , then you are wrong. If your religion doesn't state that YHWH is the Lord of lords and King of kings and Jesus was his son whom he sent to us for salvation , then your religion is FALSE doctrine instituted to the people by satan himself , and you are in turn worshiping satan rather than our Lord.

I hope that clears up some stuff for you Dooley.
Btw , there is archeolical evidence for the events of the Old Testament (The Torah) , which contains many prophecies of Jesus , which were all 100% fulfilled. But in no place is there any prophecy about Quran , or any other prophets after Jesus. The muslims always state that their god allah IS the God of the Torah , so they say allah IS YHWH , however , clearly in the Torah God tells Moses that his name is YHWH , the name which we should always call him by.

From what I understand , allah is supposed to be derived from Elohim , which is also a name for God , but it is not HIS name. His name is YHWH , but Elohim is also used in conjunction with his name , hence in the Bible the Lord God , But his proper name is YHWH , and not Elohim , since elohim from what I understand was also used to say god for other gods , so it is considered more like a word for god rather than his proper name.

I'm leaving here some links for videos that clearly show some evidence for the events of the Old Testament , which is in fact the basis for muslims , as they believe everything in the old testament is true , including Jesus , and what they believe is that Mohammed was another prophet , like Moses , but he was the last prophet sent by God.

So the god of muslims is in fact suppossed to be the god of the Torah and of the Christians , they just believe in an extra prophet , who could in fact be a true prophet of god or someone deceived by the devil, depending on how you interpret things and what you believe. But truth be told , Torah had prophecy for Jesus , which was fulfilled , and Jesus had prophecy for the second coming of Jesus , and the end/renew of the world , it said nothing of mohammed.

Now Dooley , if you wan't to be fully sure of things , do some research of the mahdi , someone the muslims are expecting to appear soon. Read what the prophecy of him is by the muslims , and what he is suppossed to do when he comes. Then read the prophecies of Daniel reguarding the anti-christ , and when he is suppossed to appear and what he is supposed to do. Oh yeah , and REMEMBER , they muslim faith ACCEPTS the Old Testament are truth and divine word inspired by God. So , that itself should really open your eyes.

As for technology , remember , this knowledge is never really given by God to people , as if you read Genesis , Adam and Eve were punished for eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There are things which humans were not meant to know , and when you read the scriptures , they are always focused on the message , rather than on technicalities , i.e. the sun and moon are both named lights by the Old Testament , when in fact the moon is a satellite , but that type of information was really useless to the people of such time , it is not what the message is about.

Here is a good vid showing some evidence of the Old Testament.

THE SEARCH FOR THE REAL MOUNT SINAI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yavdx8ayPSs

Like a summed up version of the above , watching the whole movie is recommended.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkcgLz3U56k

Here is link to info about egyptian papyrus confirming events of plagues in egypt.
http://www.henryzecher.com/ipuwer_papyrus.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/regkeith/linkipuwer.htm
http://ezinearticles.com/?Hebrews-in-Egypt---Slaves-and-Plagues---Extra-Biblical-Proof!&id=1804275



The events of the Bible DID happen.What you make of such events , well that's personal interpretation , as there is people who dispute them to be just natural events of nature , but one thing we can now know for sure is , they are valid history which did in fact take place , something thats been heavily debated in the past by people claiming the Bible to just be stories or fairy tales and didn't actually happen.

So , in the end you have to make your own proper decision , but remember , the basis for both religions is in fact the Torah, so you have to use that as your base to derive your conclusion. i.e. , without the Torah , there is no Quran , because if the Torah is not real , then the God of the Quran never existed to begin with.