No, by "inappropriate places" I meant "science class"

I hope by science class your not referring to my post. All I meant was that we should teach religion in a way that gives everyone a fair understanding to make their own choices. Again I don't believe in anything myself but I don't want other people to be miss informed, that's all. I'm not saying let's all worship god right after we do the pledge in the morning. I would agree with you that we shouldn't teach religion in a science class. I meant it should be thought with just cold hard facts. NOW BEFORE YOU JUMP DOWN MY THROAT claiming there are no facts I mean the facts of what the religion believes in. For example: Fact! Jews believe in one God. That is not an opinion that is a fact. Fact Christians believe Jesus is the son of God because of such and such reason.

Regarding Creationism, I've already stated my views that the Bible is not accurate enough for science class.

I would still teach Intelligent Design in science class, if only for the following reasons:

1. Many great scientists from the past (Newton, Einstein, Ibn Sina) have sited God as the cause of the Universe. Some were actual Muslims and Christians, and some were more like deists (I mean Einstein here), who did not believe in a personal god. Nevertheless, the word God was used, and that deserves mention.

2. The Quran and other religious texts from around the world claim that God did create the universe. This has had an impact on science, and in the case of the Quran, really helped move the sciences forward. The Quran's statements which predict scientific discoveries are worth mentioning also.

3. The negative aspects of religion could also be mentioned, like how the Catholic church tried to suppress certain discoveries which conflicted with the Bible. This could be contrasted against the way the sciences flourished under Islamic civilization. These are historical realities which had a definite impact on science - positive and negative. Perfectly relevant for a science class. I have no problem with other cultural and religious contributions to science either, I just don't know much about them.

While I still maintain that God is not a concept that can be proven or disproven through science (Tiles), it has had an undeniable impact on the sciences which cannot be ignored.

God still remains an open question. For one, there is no other obvious explanation for the existence of the universe. Science is limited to what can be observed and tested. The cause of the Big Bang, is something outside of science's ability to test, at least so far.

Second, God's legacy remains in His books. If you do not want to read them, or you have already concluded that they are fairy tales, that's your choice. You are ignoring a huge part of human history. When I read the Quran, I did not actually expect to believe in it, but I read with an open mind, and I was convinced of it's truth.

Yes we should compare our beliefs to reality. If our beliefs contradict reality, we have to accept reality. So far I have seen no conflict between what the Quran says, and reality. Therefor, I believe the things it mentions about those things which are unseen, i.e. life after death, God, etc...

Finally, believing that God created the universe should not deter anyone from finding out more about it. Belief can create an attitude of curiosity, even if it is to test whether one's beliefs are true or not.

Me likes this passages best:



Best creature, eh? And i am the worst creature, eh? No wonder you cannot leave your hands away. You are SO good, and i am SO bad ...

And again this black n white thinking. It does not work in reality, why should it work with a god?

There is a ton of religions that says exact that about its faith. Believe US or you will burn in a hell. OUR god is the one. OUR god has the biggest ...

What makes you think that your religion is the right one?


Yup, they mentioned that they haven't found any proof for a god ...



And the way this "god" made the earth gots disproven.



WTF? Arabic culture was growing and evolving. Then came the islam. And arabic culture started to stagnate. It has moved the science and the whole society backwards, not forwards.

Religion is slavery in the name of a god.



No



Not for me. A disproven lie is no open question.



Not for me. A disproven lie is no obvious explanation.



Science has blast away the chains of religion.

Religion relys at one book full of fairy tales and lies. Most of this book is even disproven.

Science has filled whole libraries with provable knowledge, growing.

Who is limited here?



There is more than one scientic theory. And they all don't need a god. As usual.

Everytime science tried to check the fairy tales of the existance of a god they found nothing. And when humans find a way to check big bang they will also here not find any proof for the existance of a god.



Can somebody else answer this? I loose interest ...

You have to see the truth in order to reject it. If you read the whole Quran you would realize this important fact.

"Then lo! thy Lord for those who do evil in ignorance and afterward repent and amend--lo! (for them) thy Lord is afterward indeed Forgiving, Merciful." (Quran 16:119)

The passage you quoted is describing people who understand Islam, believe it to be the truth (in their hearts they cannot deny it) and then they reject it. This is the meaning of the Arabic word 'kafir', it comes from 'covering up', and refers to one who covers up the truth.

I don't know what is in your mind. Whether you are rejecting what I say out of ignorance, or out of covering up the truth. Only you (and God if He exists :)) know what your intentions are.



I already explained that. But to humor you, I will explain again. I'm not a Christian or a Jew, because I've read the Bible, and I don't think it is 100% reliable. It contains contradictions, and information that is clearly wrong from a scientific perspective.

I am not a Buddhist, because Buddha said he did not know if there was a God or not, he did not claim to be a messenger of God, and while I like the teachings of Buddhism, it appears that he was just a wise man who taught whatever truth he could gather from his observations. I also did not find anything in his teachings which clearly contradict Islam, with the exception of reincarnation.

Hinduism was just a jumble of many different religions in which many cultures combined their beliefs into many different gods. There are some Hindu scriptures which state that there is one all powerful creator God, and that He cannot be seen. But other Hindus sources teach that there are many gods, and each has it's own sphere of influence. Besides, I went to a Hindu temple once, and it gave me the creeps.

Jainism seemed nice, because of its pacifism. However, not being allowed to eat meat seemed too strange for me. If the creator allowed other animals to eat meat, it would be strange for humans to be forbidden from this practice.

Confucius wrote about running a government, and it's ideal form. He barely ever mentioned God, and I did not recall him mentioning any afterlife.

Anyway, if the Eastern traditions are the correct beliefs, I'll have an infinite number of chances to get it right, and I'd rather find out I was wrong, and have to live as a dog or mouse, than find out Islam was right and end up in Hell.

The many Shamen religions throughout the worlds less advanced civilizations were very compelling. It seems that there must be truth to something if it arises in many parts of the world simultaneously. However, Shamen religions do not concern themselves with God or the Hereafter, but rather with communicating with spirits. Also, some of the practices of the Shamens struck me as a bit strange, like taking mind altering drugs in order to achieve a 'spiritual' state.

Some Native American tribes had a belief in a single Creator God, which they called 'the Great Spirit'. To me, this confirmed that the idea of God was not unique to the Abrahamic faiths. When I looked into this further, I found this creator was mentioned in many of the world's religions. From the Aztecs to the Egyptians, to Hinduism, and others. Even the Greeks mentioned the 'Chaos' from which all things were formed.

The Quran seems to answer to all of these ideas. It is a clear confirmation of the basic doctrine of the Bible i.e. that God created the universe, and sent prophets to teach human beings what to believe, and how to behave. It also answers the Shamens, by stating that there are spirits (jinn) who try to mislead humans from the right path.

It also mentions that messengers were sent to every nation, and this would explain why many of the worlds religions have the creator God at their core. It also explains that humans have a bad tendency to make idols to worship alongside God, or instead of God.

Finally, I realized that the Quran said all this in a way which did not contradict itself, or the reality that I could observe around me. Therefor, I could not deny the possibility that it was actually true. So when it warned that those who reject the truth will be punished in Hell, I took it literally, and became a Muslim.

There are other religions in the world, some of which are even offshoots of Islam. I can talk about these too if you like, but I don't want to take up too much space.

When I learn of a new religion, I do study it, and try to determine if it is better than what I already have. This is the first time I have studied atheism, so I thank you for spending the time to explain it to me



Actually most scientists agree that the question of God lies outside of the ability of science to answer.



Only the Biblical story of creation is clearly contradictory to science.



Don't make comments like this if you've never read any history on the topic. Arabs were divided into small city-states based on tribes and clans. The constantly fought wars with one another, and they worshiped about 360 different idols. There was no 'Arabic Culture' before Islam. They had a common language, and a yearly pilgrimage that was founded by the Prophet Abraham, but that's about all that united them as a nation. They claimed to follow the religion of Abraham, but they had changed it so much that it was unrecognizable.

Islam united the Arabs under one religion and made them the most powerful empire in the world at the time. This sounds like Islam is an aggressive religion, but you have to understand where they lived. The Byzantine empire was not exactly a peaceful neighbor, and the Persian Empire was no better.

I'm not arguing that everything Muslims ever did was good, but you can't fault Islam or the Quran for that.



God is not disproven. You cannot disprove God. God, however could choose to prove himself. He apparently chose to do this through messengers and prophets. You cannot say that they were wrong, because you did not experience what they experienced. You cannot decide what God should and should not do, He's God, you're not.



Again you are thinking about Christian Europe. Under Christianity in Europe, yes, science had to struggle against the church, because the Bible was appearing to be less and less authentic. This never happened in the Muslims world. Science was encouraged and grew under Islamic Civilization. look it up for yourself. Science never made discoveries which clearly contradict the Quran, so there was never any tension between Muslim scientists and the religious scholars.

I know you don't believe me, but I'm explaining it the best way I can. If you want to do a little research of your own into this, and come to a different conclusion, be my guest. I will listen. But I cannot sit here and agree with you, when you are clearly jumping to conclusions about Islam, based only on what you learned about Christianity.



It is obvious that you have never studied any religions. I guess most people haven't, even religious people. I think this is a shame, because religions have a lot of good things to teach us.

Wow Dooley I thought it couldn't get worse but every new post of yours really shows how close minded you really are, but I don't care what you think is true lets stick to the facts.

The things about the Quran and Infidels and please don't say you have to read it in context, these things are clearly mentioned.


Sura  4:168: “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will  not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”

Mohammed said: “No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir (infidel).”(Hadith vol. 9:50)

Sura 47:4 “When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a great slaughter among them, and of the rest make fast the fetters.”

Sura 66:9: “Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate

Sura 8:39-40: “Say to the infidels: If they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven them; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! “And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.”

"O Prophet! Strive hard (lit., make "jihad") against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be adamant with them... " (66:73).

You can quote your fairy tale book as often as you want you need to provide evidence for your claims these quotes have nothing to do with evidence.

You won't get away with your rather poor attempt to present yourself as open minded person , it really doesn't matter who first was the first one trying to describe nature the result would be the same if you stick to the facts there is no reason to believe that God is needed for life or the universe.

This is the fundamental contradiction of your believe with reality how can you be a muslim, christian or jew aso. and not believe in God?

No the Bible is not accurate enough but the Quran is Dooley please stop to bring up your personal feelings in a discussion about the evidence that doesn't support any of your views.


Please post the part of the Quran where DNA, Quantum physics aso. are explained. The part where the gems are described in detail , the part where we maybe even have the earth gravity with numbers aso.

And again could you please provide objective evidence, felling good about something or other people also believed that or the Quran says is just white noise that nobody cares about when it comes to hard facts.

Dooley you are a true believer but if you have some much knowledge we aren't you in a much higher position than you are now arguing in a forum ?



And you are not biased ?

What makes Allah better than any other god does he have a better car or the most chicks in town ?
When do we get to the point where all of this white noise just breaks down to a bunch of stupid ideas that are just made up to control people but obviously you like to be controlled, well thats your problem.

Tiles believe what do you got to loose, thats exactly what I have expected if you have no arguments like Dooley, what do got left, well you can try to convert the others and make them blind and ignorant like yourself.


You maybe should have made an internship in North Korea to get a glim's of what it is like to pray all day long, maybe that would have opened your mind. And it also adds a lot the the argument you brought up that religion is not imposed, no it says that if you don't believe in my fairy tale version you will go to hell.

But we all have to realize someone who is brainwashed like you will never provide anything that is not based on only his believe or his feelings,holy book these things have nothing to do with the scientific method.

Whether it is Islam or Christianity or the other fairy tales it most of all wishful thinking from a time where superstition was the only game in town and thats all and if you say, I believe this or that then I will tell you why it is stupid to believe without evidence. Your believe is a great way to get away from your own responsibilities by giving it all into the hands of an celestial dictator.


I am writing to much text I should get on and do my design stuff so I will make a rule now for myself if you don't address these two questions for me this discussion is over because who haven't brought anything to the table yet.


“Please post the part of the Quran where DNA, Quantum physics aso. are explained. The part where the gems are described in detail , the part where we maybe even have the earth gravity with numbers aso.” Only things with caculations attached not just mythic descriptions that could be applied to pretty much anything.

“Dooley you are a true believer but if you have some much knowledge we aren't you in a much higher position than you are now arguing in a forum ? “

And again just disproven hot air. And again you simply ignore the previous 40 pages of discussion. And again you simply ignore all the facts. It makes really no sense to discuss with you anymore. All we will hear from you is repeating your lies again and again. No matter if disproven earlier.



Nope, i talk about religions in general. It is you who wants me to think that way because then your arguments would become a bit more valid in your eyes.

And i talk especially about islam. Which is for me one of the most unfree religions around. I talked about arabic society, not european. Islam has changed one of the leading cultures into a stagnating unfree society in the medieval.

But let's talk about a more actual example. Iran. That is Islam how it works when we don't defeat it. That system is the result of your religion where you are so proud at.

Religious slavery!



Ah, and again, just because i have another opinion my knowledge is not big enough, right? I have no clue what i am talking about, and you are the only wise man here, right? Ah, i forgot, i am one of the worst creatures

Don't tell me what i know or not. You, especially you with your closeminded religious poisoned brain, cannot know that.

What is obvious is that you are not longer willing to follow arguments. You never were. You are just interested to defeat your chimera called god. And to ratter the one or another soul maybe.

And don't tell me how i have to read the texts. I think for myself. I don't need a religious fanatic to do that for me. When there stands every non believer burns in hell then it says exact that. And nothing else.

I have learned enough about religions to know that this so called religions lies at me. In an unbelievable shameless manner.

I have learned enough about religions to know that religion is a weapon to control people.

I have learned enough about religions to know that religion is brain washing. You are the best example how this works. At you it works perfect. You have completely stopped thinking. What's left is religious reflexes. An empty shell.

I think i know more about religions than you my friend. I know the important bits about it

And to repeat myself: Gimme a proof for the existance of your pink elephant called god. Then let's talk again

Nothing of the lies they tell you in so called religious books is true. And especially the lie about a god. There is no god.

It gets worse for religion when it comes to 'proving the Bible' or any of the other holy scriptures as being historic.

Apart from the usual claims about names and having found a certain "Biblical" city, there's really no shred of evidence for any of the stories being historic. That is.. unless you accept the possibility that SOME details from these hugely exaggerated versions of what might have really happened are correct. But needless to say something 'being a possibility' doesn't need proof, so that won't get us further.

Of course you clever folks will probably think, yeah but just because they haven't found such proof yet, it could still be true and all. But looking at the amount of research already done, I'd say it's far beyond incredibly unlikely already.



I very much agree, but the difficult part is explaining them why it's all a lie.

Cheers

Agreed.

But not because the explanation is so difficult. It's because religious people tends to be deaf for it. Because that would bring their faith in danger.

Explanation is pretty simple. Science searches for everything that exists. When something exists science will find it sooner or later. Science has not found a single proof for the existance of a god so far though. Nothing. Even worse, science has disproven most of the fairy tales in the so called religious books.

And even for somebody unscientic it is very obvious that there must be something wrong with this books. The content is too inconsistent and conflicts with itself. But exact these Books claims to contain the only truth.

That all can just lead to one conclusion: the whole story the books want to tell is untrue.

Our whole discussion since several pages is as follow:

No, it isn't
Yes it is
No, it isn't
Yes it is
No, it isn't
Yes it is
No, it isn't
Yes it is
No, it isn't
Yes it is
No, it isn't
Yes it is
No, it isn't
Yes it is
...

To be continued

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. It's impossible to convince or even 'educate' someone who's not willing to critically look at what they believe in.

Because all valid arguments in favor of whatever belief aside, there's plenty of crap that keeps coming up in discussions like these. Effectively making it a game of who's got the biggest breath and most stubborn attitude, instead of ever reaching some kind of consensus. :p

As far as claims of 'only truth' go, if a God would have truly intended us to figure out which one is the only truth, than it would have made sure we are actually somehow able to check things for ourselves. Now, it's like throwing darts blindfolded at a board we do not even know exists, let alone what's written on it.

In the end, it just doesn't make sense to pretend to know things we can't possibly know.

Cheers