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Re: Unity 2.5 for Windows - sooner than you think [Re: AlbertoT] #248032
01/23/09 23:15
01/23/09 23:15
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Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank Offline
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no, they render not only what you can see, they render everything in your view frustum. There will be some z-sorting and maybe culling this way. But it could be that it has to check a lot of geometry, even behind the walls.

A zone and a portal can do culling right to the point. There you have maximum influence in the design of culling.


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Re: Unity 2.5 for Windows - sooner than you think [Re: Machinery_Frank] #248038
01/24/09 00:27
01/24/09 00:27
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AlbertoT Offline
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yes octree render also items behind the walls but not bsp , as far as I know
However my question was
The extensive use of zone and portals in the new generation game engines have something to do with the fact that the bottle necks , nowadays, mainly depend on the number of shaders , rather than on the number of tris or they are simply more efficient culling algo's ?
I mean, as long as , you reduce the amount of data to be sent to the render pipeline than you should get a benefit, I suppose, in any case
On the other hand you must take into account the cost of the algo itself in term of CPU cycles

Last edited by AlbertoT; 01/24/09 00:35.
Re: Unity 2.5 for Windows - sooner than you think [Re: AlbertoT] #248052
01/24/09 07:59
01/24/09 07:59
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Machinery_Frank Offline
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Yes. Polygons are not the problem in modern hardware. But shaders are. And CPU-cycles should not be wasted for scene-management only. It needs good optimization to do all that can be done on gpu (graphics, skinning, physics) and leave enough room for AI, game logics, controllers and other stuff on cpu.


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Re: Unity 2.5 for Windows - sooner than you think [Re: Machinery_Frank] #248069
01/24/09 11:25
01/24/09 11:25
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ello Offline
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frank, what are you trying to figure there? i just dont understand it. unity proved more than enough that it IS capable

just my 2c

Re: Unity 2.5 for Windows - sooner than you think [Re: ello] #248072
01/24/09 12:11
01/24/09 12:11
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Machinery_Frank Offline
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Yes. You got me wrong. Unity can render great terrains and uses lod and streaming. I already mentioned that. I just dont know about indoor scene-management. That is all I said.

I will make some testings soon and will compare different engines with the same indoor geometries and we will see more clearly then.

And I am sure Unity will have the best work-flow and tools of all indie engines. But this is still guessing from my side. I had no chance to test Unity so far. I have to wait.


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Re: Unity 2.5 for Windows - sooner than you think [Re: Machinery_Frank] #248080
01/24/09 13:40
01/24/09 13:40
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ChrisB Offline
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Actually you do scene management for saving cpu cycles, as you also need it for example for collision detection. If you dont do it you must always go trough the complete entity list, with a tree you already knew which objects are near and you only need to test these. Finding an specific object needs c*n time (where c is an unknown contant, and n the number of object in the level) without scene managment, with a tree it is c*log n, or something similar.
You can always implement zone management in every engine on your own, thats not that difficult.


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Re: Unity 2.5 for Windows - sooner than you think [Re: ChrisB] #248093
01/24/09 14:22
01/24/09 14:22
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AlbertoT Offline
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yes, ok for scene mamagement in general, but the question is :
Why zone \ portals instead of the traditional octree \ bsp ?

Re: Unity 2.5 for Windows - sooner than you think [Re: AlbertoT] #248094
01/24/09 14:25
01/24/09 14:25
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Pappenheimer Offline
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bsp is said to slow down the cpu too much - I guess, it is, because today the scenes are way bigger than the levels where bsp was the first choice.

another drawback is that you have always compute the level before you can test it realtime - it slows down the workflow.

Last edited by Pappenheimer; 01/24/09 14:29. Reason: added another reason
Re: Unity 2.5 for Windows - sooner than you think [Re: ChrisB] #248098
01/24/09 14:46
01/24/09 14:46
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Machinery_Frank Offline
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Originally Posted By: ChrisB
You can always implement zone management in every engine on your own, thats not that difficult.


You probably did not see all the issues that come up with zones and portals. Let us take shadows. Some shadows have to go through portals, some others dont have to. Some lights might be switched on even if they are not visible on their own but they create shadows and lighting behind a portal. There is geometry scissoring and maybe background streaming.

It is not a trivial task if you do it right.

But it gives more freedom than compiling BSP maps for hours or days.


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Re: Unity 2.5 for Windows - sooner than you think [Re: Pappenheimer] #248101
01/24/09 14:57
01/24/09 14:57
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AlbertoT Offline
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Originally Posted By: Pappenheimer
bsp - I guess, it is, because today the scenes are way bigger than the levels where bsp was the first choice.

This sounds to me as a valid explanation of the reason why zone \portals are getting more and more popular
Even though it is definitely true that the number of tris is not anymore that issue it was in the past

Quote:

another drawback is that you have always compute the level before you can test it realtime - it slows down the workflow.


Ok the drawback for the workflow but I wonder
3dgs can take plenty of time to compile a map
What is it doing while I am getting nervous wink ?
I have alwayes supposed that it is storing a lot of precalculated data
Should I not expect any advantage for the frame rate, as a compensation of my patience smile?

Last edited by AlbertoT; 01/24/09 15:03.
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