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Re: more robust menu for templates
[Re: vertex]
#250595
02/08/09 22:48
02/08/09 22:48
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,580
Blade280891
Serious User
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Serious User
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,580
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Login? Also, I would like to see Gamestudio settle on a single scripting language that never has major changes. Changing scripting languages and template methods and other major changes only alienates current users and makes obsolete learned methods/past tutorials/tools. It narrows the market. Using lite-c makes it simpler for users to create games, and without it being updated it would limit users. Lite-c and engine updates are not major changes and do not alienate users, and it does not make pass methods obsolete just some past code. Software is always changing if you cannot keep up with the changes then don't update, it is your choice. Also there is a limit to how easy it can be for people to make a game, using the templates as they are will limit you slightly and so you should learn how to modify them instead of asking for them to modified for you, they are already very flexible.
My Avatar Randomness V2"Someone get me to the doctor, and someone call the nurse And someone buy me roses, and someone burned the church"
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Re: more robust menu for templates
[Re: Blade280891]
#250597
02/08/09 23:08
02/08/09 23:08
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 218 U.S.
GamerX
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Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 218
U.S.
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I don't think GS wants to be a leader in "click together" games like fps creator or game maker. I don't think its users want it to be either. Learn to program instead of using the templates. It is a powerful engine when you know how to use it. Templates are ok for when you are just learning but you need to eventually grow out of them.
And changes to the language? All game engines have an need updates and changes to make the engine better. Click together game engines are rarely respected amongst programmers and are not very powerful. The best way is always to program it yourself and GS already makes it really easy. Truly i hope that GS doesn't take the turn toward becoming a more click together game engine.
"You may never know what results come of your action, but if you do nothing there will be no result." -Mahatma Gandhi
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Re: more robust menu for templates
[Re: jcl]
#250750
02/09/09 15:43
02/09/09 15:43
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 215
vertex
OP
Member
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OP
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 215
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Hmmm...
When GUIs and a mouse started coming with every pc, I never heard anyone complain, "this is too easy to use, change it back." Also, the other game engine products that you mentioned have issues i.e. FPS Creator has incredibly ineffective native geometry for its blocks requiring huge amounts of over-draw calculations and is very task-(fps)-focused as the name emplys. Etc...But let's not bash those guys, they have their niche, and Gamestudio is in another competing with the likes of Torque and Unity. It's not a discussion about target market as much as changes/direction needed for market share.
As an artist, I admit that I would like to see a template package for flight sim, boat sim, rpg, fps etc... But, would any of that make Gamestudio any less flexible. It would make it more flexible in fact.
More than templates, I would like to see a wide variety of WED tools that make it easier and easier to do things that are common to every video game.
These tools would only serve as learning tools not only to new programmers but seasoned programmers new to Gamestudio or new to the recent Gamestudio language. A little-used feature in 3D Studio Max is it's VRML 97 implementation-- a visual way to represent and implement code allowing for easy fast flexible design for an artist. (Bluxxun (another German co.) provides a browser to view VRML content. (Wed in essence does this as well and I would like to see it continue.)
I like the engine. Game Studio is so close to being even more respected and powerful-- to go up a rung or two on the ladder of market share. I think more power and respect will come by making it easier and easier to use so that game designers/programmers/and artists can focus more on the game and less on simple common tasks that require many separate game teams to re-invent the wheel with every game effort. i.e. wed/template-based menu code or looping non 3D sound for music or more trigger options etc. etc.
Again my two cents. I admit that I am not qualified to say what changes in code /script language are/were needed.
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Re: more robust menu for templates
[Re: vertex]
#250847
02/10/09 07:45
02/10/09 07:45
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,232 Australia
EvilSOB
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,232
Australia
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I loved the A6 templates system, whilst working on my own project/s, many times Ive said "how the hell am I going to code this? Where do I start?"
So I would then skim through all the templates, looking for code that does roughly what I want and if I cant follow the code completely, I then build a dummy project that uses that template so I can play with it to fully understand it. Now with new understanding and techniques fresh in my mind, I can write my own code that has been inspired by the templates! Im sure many other coder-users do the same.
So far I havent tried looking into the A7 templates, but its only a matter of time.
So more templates is always good. Both for users and for conitecs respect-levels.
I too would like to see a newer, more graphical menu template. Based on say PANEL rather than TEXT objects. I did one myself once, but I was far from happy with it(too ugly), junked it and went API, junked that(full screen issues), and went for a TEXT menu (still ugly but works).
All in all, keep up the excellent work guys...
"There is no fate but what WE make." - CEO Cyberdyne Systems Corp. A8.30.5 Commercial
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Re: more robust menu for templates
[Re: EvilSOB]
#250857
02/10/09 10:45
02/10/09 10:45
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900 Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
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Vertex, I respect your efforts and interest relating an easiness of use.
Just in short: Programming a game is a creative act, too. It is not only the art which makes a game unique and fun, it is the programming as well, and this means, you can't simply reuse old gameplay to make a new game. This means, at least, an artist won't be able to make a game without any programmer.
The templates didn't help me as much to get my own game as the articles and small applications that the Acknex User Magazin (AUM, Link on this page) offers. The templates are IMO too complex to learn from them. The articles in AUM are small and well explained. And the initial workshops of GameStudio on the download page give a nice introduction how everything relates to each other and gives a basic understanding of the scripting.
Nonetheless, none of them gives you a fully set of features that everyone would expect in a freely explorable 3D world. That's probably what you are missing, and the template tries to offer that, but it takes IMO a too complex approach and isn't intuitive, that you could expand it easily.
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Re: more robust menu for templates
[Re: Pappenheimer]
#250867
02/10/09 12:27
02/10/09 12:27
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121 Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
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Vertex vision is right. He does not want to limit users like Pappenheimer, he just wants fast access to get a virtual walkthrough to create a living world with a few clicks. This is what IntenseX also promises.
And it makes sense. It attracts more users. Many artists just want to see their contents in real-time, want to make a fast walkthrough, a little prototype, not a full game. Why should we not respect this?
I think this is a big market, even bigger than the market of freaks we are. Why is everybody using a tv or a radio? Because they dont have to code it, to develop it, to write a concept. They can just use it and have fun with it. This is what the huge amount of people are interested in and this is why FPS-Creator has so many users.
The templates are indeed a good chance to stand against Unity3d and co. If you really want to hardcore code your game then there are alot of C++ engines available.
Models, Textures and Games from Dexsoft
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Re: more robust menu for templates
[Re: Machinery_Frank]
#250882
02/10/09 13:48
02/10/09 13:48
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 215
vertex
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 215
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Points well taken; however, a well-rounded 3D artist has to understand architecture, drawing/painting, sculpting/anatomy, interface design, color theory, animation, art path issues, and variety of complex software/processes to create good game art-- oh yeah, and hardware/OS fun and and games. I'm not sure that there is enough time in the day/lifetime to become a great coder and a great artist. To ignore these artists is to ignore market share that is largely untapped in my opinion. I think even with robust templates, artists will confront all those issues and now add to that coding...
I'm also not talking about watering anything down/or creating only walk throughs-- just hoping that there remain two distinct robust layers-- the drivers seat and the engine. A good F1 driver can have little understanding of how his complex car works. There is no reason a good artist could not publish a unique and cool FPS or FlIGHT sim that gets a great deal of its value from the intrinsic value of its art/story/music. That game is possible with easier to use tool sets and evolving templates.
The same engine that allows artist-created games could be the corner stone for learning to program creatively and the cornerstone for games that get their core value from the brilliance and creativity of a programmer...and programming-centric game--i.e. tetris.
Again, more than templates I would like to see more tools that automate common game tasks. IntenseX is a good example of both.
I'm not talking about drag and drop games or walkthrus as much as I am about a general direction/philosophy-- one that ends up with a product that is more like a paint brush/word processor. Grade school children use both. Does that mean a master painter should not use a paint brush? Or that an incredible writer should chisel his books in stone. Or that people should make word processors and paint brushes harder to use to avoid the stigma of using children's tools.
Maybe I'm off base on the following, but if you make the perfect language and ignore Wed tools/templates what is Gamestudio for? My two cents. I think we all agree in essence.
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Re: more robust menu for templates
[Re: vertex]
#250891
02/10/09 14:59
02/10/09 14:59
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900 Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
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I think we all agree in essence. Actually, we do. What I am talking about, is the current state of usability. EDIT: ... and what you can do at present with the given assets. I tend to exaggerate the present. What you, and Frank, have been talking about has been the target of the templates and 3DGS for years - and I'm working with 3DGS since about 9 years now. And in general the target has been missed, maybe, because of too weak efforts, maybe of other preferences, probably because of both. I don't know. I just say, from my experiences, you won't get more than I mentioned in my post above, for now. The templates are an abandoned building site for months and the finish of an ingame editor has been skipped, maybe, because the developer lost his faith into his project. I don't know. It is a pity. That's the state. Not that anyone wishes that it is like this. Maybe, George is willing to start a new template. Maybe, there is no money for such a project. Who knows.
Last edited by Pappenheimer; 02/10/09 15:07.
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