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Re: The Bible Contradicts Itself [Re: Dan Silverman] #259905
04/08/09 07:34
04/08/09 07:34
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EvilSOB Offline
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I would interpret "go about on all fours" as meaning the creature in question
uses all its limbs to walk, belly to the ground. Is there any one who can
track that phrase back to hebrew?

I say this because, in modern times, WE have no complaints if someone says
"look, that person is down on all fours".
Nobody Ive ever met would correct him and say "No they arent, they are on
two arms and two legs, so you should say they are down on two by two."

I conclude that it is possible that the phrase "on all fours" is applicable
where 'all' limbs are being used to move, and the belly is toward the ground,
regardless of the number or type of actual limbs involved.
(Symbolising subserviance maybe? Kneeling an all fours? Like face-down praying?)


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Re: The Bible Contradicts Itself [Re: EvilSOB] #259930
04/08/09 08:42
04/08/09 08:42
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline
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Dan Silverman  Offline
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Posts: 11,321
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Quote:
I would interpret "go about on all fours" as meaning the creature in question
uses all its limbs to walk, belly to the ground. Is there any one who can
track that phrase back to hebrew?


I can read the Hebrew (though not perfectly). I have a Hebrew Bible here as well. And I can do the research on this. This is one of the reasons I brought this up as I did. This is why I mentioned the Hebrew words used.

Quote:
I say this because, in modern times, WE have no complaints if someone says
"look, that person is down on all fours".


We say that because it is TRUE! If a person is down on their hands and their knees then they are literally on all fours (as opposed to standing on two feet). So the word "four" literally means "four". It is the same in the Hebrew phrase about the creatures.

Quote:
I conclude that it is possible that the phrase "on all fours" is applicable
where 'all' limbs are being used to move, and the belly is toward the ground,
regardless of the number or type of actual limbs involved.
(Symbolising subserviance maybe? Kneeling an all fours? Like face-down praying?)


Nope. That is not how it is being used. The phrase is not an idiom. It is not a figure of speech. It is written in such a way as to literally mean that the creatures have four legs (and no more).


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Re: The Bible Contradicts Itself [Re: Dan Silverman] #259933
04/08/09 08:52
04/08/09 08:52
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 353
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amy Offline
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While it is kind of funny that those ancient people didn´t seem to be able to count the legs of insects, I don´t really see the relevance of it. smile

Re: The Bible Contradicts Itself [Re: amy] #259940
04/08/09 09:48
04/08/09 09:48
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
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Dan Silverman Offline
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It's not really all the relevant. However, for people that claim that the Bible is perfect and without error because, as they say, it was given by the perfect, all-knowing god, then there should be no mistake, no matter how trivial. But, as we can see, they got it wrong by claiming that beetles, grasshoppers and locusts have only four legs/feet. That is an error. Therefore, the Bible is not perfect and without error. And this is just one small thing.

They also included the bat in with a list of birds despite the fact that the bat does not lay eggs, does not have feathers, does not have a beak, but has teeth instead, etc. So even if they categorized animals differently, it would be pretty obvious that a bat is not a bird and it would certainly be known to a god that supposedly knows everything and is, himself, perfect. So, again, this little exercise simply demonstrates that the Bible is not perfect and, as a result, it could not have come from a perfect god.

And this is just one, small example.

But we see something else from this example as well. Instead of seeing the error, no matter how simple and plain it is, the Christian who believes the Bible is perfect, will try to find a way to resolve the error even if they have to twist the passage to say what it would not naturally mean. So, "legs above feet" somehow becomes back legs that aren't counted in order to arrive at four legs despite beetles, locusts and grasshoppers all having six, etc.


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Re: The Bible Contradicts Itself [Re: amy] #259941
04/08/09 09:55
04/08/09 09:55
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 658
germany
Tiles Offline
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germany
Ah delerna, are we again at the point where you totally ignore all arguments because they don't fit to your ancient religious poisoned picture of the world?

There is just one word of god, right? And this word is the only true and consistent one, right?

I say where does all the different versions of the bible come from then? When there is just one true word, then there should be just one true book.

Which means from hundret bible versions there is one true bible around, and 99 wrong ones. Which means 99% of all christians read the wrong book, not the one and only true one.

And instead of answering me directly you start to dance around that, start again to insult me, doubt my sources, my knowledge, my human being ...

I would say you are a fundamentalist. And it never makes sense to discuss with a fundamentalist.

Quote:
Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."


3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.



Last edited by Tiles; 04/08/09 10:00.

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Re: The Bible Contradicts Itself [Re: Tiles] #259948
04/08/09 10:25
04/08/09 10:25
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 434
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pararealist Offline
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The bible only contradicts itself because:
The mindset of those who wrote and had input into it, the "gods" read and understand ONE thing.
And the others the "sheep" read and understand another thing.
//
This is a language of communication between the elite, those self elevated "gods" and their "staff, the priests etc" who constantly depict what they have done and intend to complete in the future to the rest of mankind.
//
At the same time it serves as a BIND for the "sheep" who have given up their ability to THINK for themselves.
//
This is my view of the bible today, having been one of these "sheep", but i escaped the sheep pen.
//
Imagine wanting to be a "sheep", it boggles the mind, literally, but they are masters at boggling people's minds, they have been doing it for ages.


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Re: The Bible Contradicts Itself [Re: delerna] #260011
04/08/09 14:42
04/08/09 14:42
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 54
Australia , NSW
D
delerna Offline OP
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delerna  Offline OP
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Dan
You are the one who brought up other animals that fly.
I merely asked which ones you were refering to.

you are also the one who brought this up
Quote:

However, the Bible is supposedly written by the god who knows everything and is perfect. He would know that a bat is not a bird and, therefore, would not include the bat in a list of birds nor would he use the Hebrew word for "bird" (tzipor) when describing them. He could have done a number of things when communicating to the ancient Hebrews:

1 - He could have listed the bat in its own category apart from any mention of birds

2 - He could have taught the ancient Hebrews that bats are not birds and then included them in the proper category of unclean animals that are not to be eaten.

However, this was not done.



Reflecting on your point I came to realize that God actually gave the job of classifing and naming the animals to us (humans).
Quote:

Genesis, Chapter 2, 019: And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


So no, I don't agree with you. I don't think God would have given them a lesson on how he thought they should be classified.
I think God would have used whatever classification they were using at the time.
If they classified bats as bird then he would have listed them among the birds.
y the way, Bats have more in common with birds than the ability to fly. Bats and birds both have 2 legs. You are in error there. smile

From the direction the discussion has taken at this point, you seem to have dropped grasshoppers and locusts.
Does that mean you are accepting that there may be a way to see them being classified as having 4 legs?

As to the beetle, I'm sorry I wasn't trying to give an absolute answer here. I was trying to express that there is more than one way to classify ... well anything. What the actual criteria they used to classify beetles as having 4 I have no way of knowing.
But it seems obvious to me that however they classified the number of legs, they were not confused by the description at all and if anyone should have found it a faith destroying error, they would have. Or else you think they were a pretty stupid people as a nation.

I maintain it is an error that is dependant on how you interpret it.
I definitely do see room for interpretation of what is a leg and what is not a leg.
Otherwise it would simply say
"that goeth upon [all] four"

and not add in the extra clarification
"that goeth upon [all] four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;"
which I believe could indicate direction or something else not thought of.

You seem to have quite a good grasp of Herew and I do not argue against what you are saying. I could not, even if I wanted to.
However I do not agree with your interpretation and you do not agree with mine.
I think we should leave the grasshopper, locust, beetle, bat enigma at that or else we will just go around in circles and not get anywhere.


Last edited by delerna; 04/08/09 15:29.
Re: The Bible Contradicts Itself [Re: delerna] #260017
04/08/09 14:55
04/08/09 14:55
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 54
Australia , NSW
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delerna Offline OP
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Tiles
I think I will stop at this point.
When you seek to discredit me by starting again to insult me, doubt my sources, my knowledge, my human being it all becomes pointless.

Re: The Bible Contradicts Itself [Re: delerna] #260021
04/08/09 15:25
04/08/09 15:25
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Posts: 54
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delerna Offline OP
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pararealist
There are some very good points you have brought up, and I agree with you on those points.
However, we have left a discussion of bible contradictions and entered a discussion about religion.

Actually, as interesting as it has been, the discussion over numers of legs and what are birds is really more a topic of "The bible contradicts science" rather than "the bible contradicts itself"
JCL and tiles posts were more what I was talking about.

Last edited by delerna; 04/08/09 15:58.
Re: The Bible Contradicts Itself [Re: delerna] #260035
04/08/09 16:52
04/08/09 16:52
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germany
Tiles Offline
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germany
Quote:
Tiles
I think I will stop at this point.
When you seek to discredit me by starting again to insult me, doubt my sources, my knowledge, my human being it all becomes pointless.


Delerna, you started that one first. Interesting, but not really surprising, that you, besides ignoring all facts and arguments and questions, even start to play bad that way now too. Twisting facts again.

Must really i as the atheist remind you? You shall not lie.


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