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Re: GameCore 2.0 release [Re: Tiles] #263793
05/02/09 11:46
05/02/09 11:46
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 658
germany
Tiles Offline
User
Tiles  Offline
User

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 658
germany
Quote:
He is an expert , you are not...it is evident


ROFL grin

Was that a green pill or a pink pill? :P

Last edited by Tiles; 05/02/09 11:47.

trueSpace 7.6, A7 commercial
Free gamegraphics, freewaregames http://www.reinerstilesets.de
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Re: GameCore 2.0 release [Re: Tiles] #263801
05/02/09 13:23
05/02/09 13:23
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank Offline
Senior Expert
Machinery_Frank  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
At Dexsoft we export models constantly to many formats. And yes, there can be problems, especially with FBX and Collada. Every modeller creates different FBX and Collada files. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not. So we are often in need to find better plugins.

I am happy that the latest version of Lightwave create really good Collada and FBX files. But even the Autodesk converter creates problems if you convert from FBX to Collada as an example.

So Alberto and Ventilator are right. It is great to have these options but they are not solid as a rock, they often need work, lots of work.

I also know from engine developers that they constantly create new routines to catch errors in FBX or Collada files, since some exporters create wrong files with missing data or missing sections as an example.


Models, Textures and Games from Dexsoft
Re: GameCore 2.0 release [Re: Machinery_Frank] #263823
05/02/09 15:10
05/02/09 15:10
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline
Senior Expert
Dan Silverman  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Quote:
The explanation is, in my opinion, that these file format are extremely complex but as I already said, redundant for our use
If someone has a better explanation. please let me know


The reason that it is difficult to support the native file formats for some 3D applications is that these native formats support info that can only be used by the application itself. For example, the .max file format is not just going to store information on geometry, UVs, materials, lights, etc. It is also going to store information on the position of the view ports at the time the file was saved, the direction of any view port cameras, if a view port was showing the geometry in wireframe mode, textured mode, etc. This information is useful only within the native application because of its own unique way of handling this sort of data.

FBX can be a pain for a lot of reasons, one of which is they keep updating it and then they are slow to release info on the update. Secondly, it also, by design, carries a lot of information with it. With OBJ you get the geometry, UVs, texture information, etc. With FBX you get that and cameras, lights, multiple UVs (if they are used) and more. Developers that allow for FBX to be used by their game engine or tools need to deal with all the information contained within the FBX file in some form or fashion. I suppose it could be a pain. Gone are the days of simply using the extremely limited 3DS file format.


Professional 2D, 3D and Real-Time 3D Content Creation:
HyperGraph Studios
Re: GameCore 2.0 release [Re: Dan Silverman] #263847
05/02/09 17:27
05/02/09 17:27
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
A
AlbertoT Offline
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AlbertoT  Offline
Serious User
A

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
Quote:

With FBX you get that and cameras, lights, multiple UVs (if they are used) and more
... I suppose it could be a pain.


Agreed , it is what I have been repearing and repeating


Quote:

Gone are the days of simply using the extremely limited 3DS file format.


This is an interesting question

On one hand I have had a lot of issues with FBX on the other hand I suppose that FBX should have some advantage over the simple file formats, for the simple reason that all the modern engines are supporting it ( or Collada )

But what ?

Ok, 3ds is a very obsolete file , it does not support skeleton animation but if you look at the Unity recomendation for character animated file ( see my previous post) I dont see any reason for not using , for example , MilkShape

So the question is, what can I expect from FBX ( assuming it is bug free ) which I can not get from a simple game oriented file format ?


Last edited by AlbertoT; 05/02/09 17:32.
Re: GameCore 2.0 release [Re: Machinery_Frank] #263848
05/02/09 17:37
05/02/09 17:37
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
A
AlbertoT Offline
Serious User
AlbertoT  Offline
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A

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
Originally Posted By: Machinery_Frank

I am happy that the latest version of Lightwave create really good Collada and FBX files.


Are the issues to be charged to the modeler \ converter only ?
I mean , suppose that the converter religiously stick to the FBX (COllada) specs but the engine does not

Have you have ever come across FBX files , exported from LightWave, which work with some engine but not with some others ?

Last edited by AlbertoT; 05/02/09 17:38.
Re: GameCore 2.0 release [Re: AlbertoT] #263849
05/02/09 17:43
05/02/09 17:43
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,488
ratchet Offline
Expert
ratchet  Offline
Expert

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,488
For 3D game studio :
I use the great plugin of Ventilator (thanks again ventilator).
It works great, and Blender is lot lot more advanced than
Fragmotion or milkshape smile

All affordable engines should support Blender Format also, caus it's free : anyone can download and use it right now !
and it's really Powerfull :
modeling ,animations,sculpting,normal map baking, retopology, UVW Unwrap, texture paint etc ...

Last edited by ratchet; 05/02/09 17:44.
Re: GameCore 2.0 release [Re: AlbertoT] #263853
05/02/09 17:50
05/02/09 17:50
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline
Senior Expert
Dan Silverman  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Quote:
On one hand I have had a lot of issues with FBX on the other hand I suppose that FBX should have some advantage over the simple file formats, for the simple reason that all the modern engines are supporting it ( or Collada )

But what ?


With FBX you can export out the geometry, multiple UV maps per object (and per scene), all textures (where they go with each piece of geometry, etc), various types of lights, cameras, bones, animations and more.

Basically, you could create an entire level (geometry, a UV map for textures, a UV map for light/shadow maps, lights (if needed), animations, etc) and export it as one FBX file and then import that into your engine of choice (if properly supported by the engine/importer). This cannot be done with obsolete file formats like 3DS or even with the more modern OBJ format. This allows the end-user to work completely in one 3D package to create just about everything they need (levels, entities, etc) and export to their engine of choice.

3DS is extremely limited. Here is a list someone compiled for the shortcomings of the 3DS format:

Quote:
Official 3DS shortcoming list:

* All meshes must be triangles.
* All texture filenames are limited to the 8.3 DOS format.
* The number of vertices and polygons per mesh is limited to 65536.
* Accurate vertex normals cannot be stored in the .3ds file. Instead "smoothing groups" are used so that the receiving program can recreate a (hopefully good) representation of the vertex normals. This is still a hold-over legacy for many animation programs today which started in the 1980's (3DS MAX, Lightwave and trueSpace still use smoothing groups, and Maya up to v2.51).
* Object names are limited to 10 characters. Material names are limited to 16 characters.
* Directional light sources are not supported.


The OBJ format has limits two. The one that gets me is the limit of only one UV map for the entire OBJ file. So if you have multiple objects created, each has to be exported as its own OBJ. If you have one object with more than one UV map (such as a piece with one UV for the texture and one for the light/shadow map) then you simply cannot use the OBJ format. The geometry will export, but if there is more than one UV map, then the object will export without any UVs at all.

A file format like FBX has none of these limitations. So the artist can freely create his scene and export it all into one file for use in the game engine.


Professional 2D, 3D and Real-Time 3D Content Creation:
HyperGraph Studios
Re: GameCore 2.0 release [Re: Dan Silverman] #263854
05/02/09 17:54
05/02/09 17:54
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline
Senior Expert
Dan Silverman  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Quote:
All affordable engines should support Blender Format also, caus it's free :


I disagree. I am supposing that the Blender file format, like the native MAX file format, the native MAYA file format, the native Modo file format (etc) stores a ton of useless information (i.e. useless to any program other than the native application). These native file formats are bloated because they carry such information as the precise position of the view ports (how many, where the view port camera is facing, etc) and a lot of other program specific data that no other program can use.

Export file formats are created for the purpose of getting what you need out of the 3D app for use in another 3D app or real-time 3D engine. It keeps the other app from having to be programmed to ignore the redundant data in the native file format of the app that created it.


Professional 2D, 3D and Real-Time 3D Content Creation:
HyperGraph Studios
Re: GameCore 2.0 release [Re: Dan Silverman] #263857
05/02/09 18:11
05/02/09 18:11
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
A
AlbertoT Offline
Serious User
AlbertoT  Offline
Serious User
A

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
Originally Posted By: Dan Silverman

A file format like FBX has none of these limitations. So the artist can freely create his scene and export it all into one file for use in the game engine.


So, if I understood well. you can create your scene in your favourite application, without using the built in Game editor
However as far as the animation of characters is concerned there is no any advantage
Only the bugs smile
Am I right ?

Last edited by AlbertoT; 05/02/09 18:12.
Re: GameCore 2.0 release [Re: Dan Silverman] #263858
05/02/09 18:16
05/02/09 18:16
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
A
AlbertoT Offline
Serious User
AlbertoT  Offline
Serious User
A

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
Quote:
All affordable engines should support Blender Format also, caus it's free :


If you visit Unity site you can see that also Blender gives problem , probably for the same reasons as FBX
It is a bloated file format

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