Yep that's right, T3D is more for a real team having real project to do, not hobbist (even if some buy it).

@ChrisB:
Man i really don't have the skills or time to do all the crazy artist stuff, so i think conitec should provide a package with nextgen models/textures/levels.

Well here is the point : So you can undestand how MUCH LOT OF WORK from 3D ARTIST is needed
And i htink you can understand 3D artists ,are okay to do game logic, some camera , collision code but that's all ,not more.
3D artist don't want to spend HOURS, MONTHS palying with code !

Thre is enought time so spend on creating the models, textures, animations , tweaking lightening, effects etc ...
Even the better 3D engine with all ready to go shaders
without some real 3D artist you can't produce anything good.

For people that like programming shaders and tools here :
SHOW US THE BEST Next Gen MODEL with Normal and specular map
(it's standard today) you've made
Make us Laught a lot

just making a few points:

i absolutely adore programming with gs, its rather easy but everytime i read the updates thread, all i see is, NEW programming features...

why is it that we have to wait on USERS for giving us basic stuff such as a particle editor, GOOD sound engine, useable shaders and models for goodness sake... WHAT IS THIS? THE YEAR 1998?? i've seen better models in n64 games than these dumb a$$ C-babe model...

i love the engine but come on, i played n64 games and got pissed at gs because i saw a feature that gs lacks... the engine needs an overhaul, NO, NOT MORE PROGRAMMING syntaxes, useable tools... oh, lemme list some:

---particle editor, dont bother telling me abt ex particles... am talkin about sytems that should be INSIDE the box

---stable physics engine, i would have no probs with ode if it wasnt unstable

---better audio engine, do i even need to say it?

---faster renderer, yaya, i kno we can SCRIPT optimizations, but can we all, for a simple crap like lod, you have to get pro to get some ease of use

---terrain editor, MED is a joke...

all in all, why limit features to different versions, pro r comm? what? looking some cheapa$$ way to get ppl to buy pro? am sure there are other ways to get us to pay $800 without limiting features...

you know what was the first thing i learnt? and i dont care if anyone agrees or not... developers behind GS arent passionate about making games and thats the simple answer to all these probs..

yes, i AGREE, show us something next gen... i've NEVER seen a scene made with gs that looks nextgen... and maybe thats the reason behind the lack of faith

firoball coming your way firoball haha "the wildwest shootout!" yeeee ha!!!

Well, it does not work with pure developers or pure artists.
Artists are not happy with game construction kits where they only need to import their models.

Pure coders cannot create outstandig art...

Now this thread switches from engine features to personal skills, dedication, vision, team, leadership... everything beyond technology.

Lets use our energy to create something cool and maybe some additional tools which makes live easier...

Exactly...

The energy , no one has stealen yours

And that's the point some people here like a lot coding , making tools, 3D artists don't mind about coding.

These tools should be in the World editor , an All In One world Editor like Unity or Torque : that is the main difference also !

Well all that have been said , lot of people know it.
It is said to improve 3DGS to perhaps in future find it more WorkFlow/3D Artists oriented

I own Unity and i like also A7 even with it's problems and lacks from a point of view of a 3D Artist that program only game logic.
Who knows perhaps i'll succeed making something under A7 ?

I just dream of a new A8

Don't wait for future improvements! If you are not satisfy you should switch the engine.
Its stupid to think that A8 will be a super artist friendly toolset. There are so many programmers here that dont mind about the artist stuff.

Well the artist side i have it lot more in unity
But i keep A7 , caus i can even wihtout coding shaders or tools you can produce some good things.
Yep even if A7 is pehaps lot more programmer oriented.

It could evolve to Artist advantages and Workflow with more visual tools why not :
- LOD Tool in WED
- Particle Editor directly in WED
- Import models directly In WED
(and change shaders ,textures, normal maps etc ..)
- No more MED
- Visual Physic Editor ??
- Shaders variables exposed to a panel for visually tweaking
them like in Unity

this list is only some things from a lot
that i dream for A8

I dream because a simple example :
Terrain Tools could be in WED (no plugin or whatelse)

Torque have all in one editor with terrain tools from lot of years , and you don't have to be a genius to make terrain
tools.
That's the point that make us think that 3DSG team is not big enought or lack a good programmer, and that we will have to wait A8

Just seeing some 2009 improvments show A8 will be great

why does everyone keep saying that should be in WED. That is a GED feature and its really annoying to keep seeing people saying that it should be in WED, WED is strictly for legacy work/ block geometry building, all realtime editing should not be in it but in GED.

ummm.. you know that makes sense but its just another add to the workflow, so now instead of having, med,sed,wed and w/e other programs i'm suing i now have ged to that list... just what i need more clutter... i love the idea of ged, i mean we all do and i dont expect this to be implemented nor am i saying it should.... but wouldnt it be better to have a rewrite of wed where you could build the geometry then run in edit mode for example and make realtime changes.... oh well... i have no problems with the engine's editor, lol, i just want better scene management, nothing else