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The most important things I would like to see:

• ODE/OPCODE replaced with something better
• high quality shadow templates (PSSM,...) - We shouldn't be dependent on half-baked user contributions.
• scrap WED and MED (they are messed up beyond all hope) and concentrate 100% on GED - GED is a start but it only is 10% there yet.

The first two points shouldn't be very hard to do but considering Conitec's track record it probably will take 3 years.

That's why editors like the Unity one are fully scriptable.

Ill agree with that. Ive never liked med, although for legacy users that like the bsp geometry base that'd very hard to do accurately in GED, so maybe MED should stop being considered a level designer, and more of an BSP tool like quark, or hammer editors.

I agree with ratchet. Though this sounds like reaching for the stars, but indeed this is what Torque3d, C4, Unity or Leadwerks are trying to do and they succeed in some areas well.

Just a few examples: As C4 gots his node based script editor it was very much the same like the script editor from Unreal Engine (kismet). The new tools at T3D for real-time placing of roads and rivers are heavily inspired by the tools of the CryEngine. The real-time feedback and synchronisation of levels on PC and iPhone while editing the levels in Unity are woking just like the AAA engines work when you develop content for a console on a PC.

So it is not that bad to compare with the big ones and learn from them. We always should learn from the best.
Sometimes this takes some re-orientation. I had to learn C++ to get into new technologies, to understand the books about AI or other game logic, to understand Irrlicht, Ogre3D or C4. It just takes a week to understand a new syntax, nothing bad at all.

Of course this is only a strategy if you are learning, if you are beginning a new project or if you are just interested in technology.
It is an entire different story if you already work on an existing project. You don't have to care about alternatives and new tech then.

I agree - even if we should not stop to learn things it can be quite heavy if you´re in production.
But I´ve learned that I should keep a "multitasking" approach, different small projects / concepts, which are
done in Unity or A7, it depends on the project.

What I simply don´t get, is the hype about the engines.
They are just tools, nothing "revolutionary".
Of course it´s ok to get excited, but imo it´s ridiculous to say
that an engine represents the absolute truth and is the Holy Grail.
(I don´t mean you, Frank, but some people are sounding like this)

I love that there are such different approaches on the market.
Imagine everyone would drive a smart - how boring.
Insteat of that, some people are driving Porsche (Unreal), some
driving a Mercedes (Torque) and some are driving VW (A7).

Now imagine a Mercedes driver that denies VW drastically.
He even ignores that there are a lot of VW drivers that are quite happy how VW evolves.
And he claims, that VW will suffer in the long end.
Ridiculous?

Of couse I would love new Gs features in terms of workflow.
But we won´t get them if we are just unfriendly.
Guisswork about the general situation of conitec doesn´t help either.

"What I simply don´t get, is the hype about the engines.
They are just tools, nothing "revolutionary".
Of course it´s ok to get excited, but imo it´s ridiculous to say
that an engine represents the absolute truth and is the Holy Grail."

Unreal Engine 3 and CryEngine 2 cost close to

A MILLION DOLLARS

And tons of developers license them.

So , I think that should OBLITERATE your argument , as if these were just mere tools of not great importance , I doubt anyone would shell out close to a million dollars for an engine.

Yes, from your point of view this might be ridiculous but I also understand people like Blattsalat, WhyDoIDie, Broozar, Wicht, Nitro, Kiyaku and others I forgot to mention.

The problem is, that Torque is not a Mercedes. Trinigy is a Mercedes. Unity is a VW and GS is probably an old VW.

Here are some examples:
1.) The motor (engine) of this old VW is ok. It can get you where you want to go (it renders content on the screen).

2.) The controls are fine. You can steer the vehicle well (Lite-C). You have a lot of small buttons and sliders.

3.) But the windscreen is blurry and dirty. You even have no wiper. You see your way not very clearly (no real-time editor). You have to guess where to go.

4.) The brakes are working most of the time but not always (collision detection). There is no break-assistant integrated.

5.) All the automatic helper and assistants are mainly missing or are weak implementations (physics, shadows, terrain, scene-management).

6.) You even cannot drive this car into other countries (no multi-platform), while most of the other cars can do this.

In the end it comes to this picture: It is a car for kids and students who cannot afford a Mercedes or Porsche. Thus it is a beginners car. Some of these beginners passionately like it and tune it further, create their own assistants, change wheels and add some rear spoilers. It will not drive faster but they like it and have fun with it.

This is nothing bad at my mind. This is how the market works.

T3D on the other hand is VW becoming a Mercedes soon, but tries to catch up with Ferrari and Porsche. Probably they will never reach this high goal but at least they are trying.

There must be a reason why many skilled users are creating professional add-ons, tools and contents for T3D (the river and road tool is actually a customer project, many shaders are from customers and this very advanced physics-animation system called Ecstasy is from customers).

Many in this thread wrote that A7 is a programmers engine, so I would expect similar tools from skilled programmers as well. GED and IntenseX are such examples. But both dont develop faster than Torque-projects, actually they develop very slowly. So programming Lite-C is in the end not faster than programming any other language out there.

I love that there are such different approaches on the market.
Imagine everyone would drive a smart - how boring.
Insteat of that, some people are driving Porsche (Unreal), some
driving a Mercedes (Torque) and some are driving VW (A7).

I prefer to walk....and drive my own internal engine!

Now having said that girls love this type of engine all beefed up and primed for action. Put me in the game and the girls will have screaming orgasms!


But seriously when you asking for something here and i should know you dont really get. I have been here since the dawn of time. Nothing really happens except coding i new this from day one and it is still the same today. I asked for a simple book and no real good book came. The answer i got was we are busy coding! The real programmers love this kind of talk. But not the artist!

Conitec should consider both!!! But sadly in recent years this has fallen on deaf ears! The reason why others have taken over and created engines that consider the artist in us all not just coders.

DRAG AND DROP IS YOUR FRIEND EMBRACE IT!!!! OR DO YOU WANT TO SLEEP WITH DOS!?

"Unreal Engine 3 and CryEngine 2 cost close to
A MILLION DOLLARS
And tons of developers license them."


Then go with Unreal - however, if you don´t have the budget, then it might be not the Holy Grail for you.
And it won´t get better, if you get louder.
The "Holy Grail" is simply the one that fits to your needs - time, quality, budget.

What Frank said - it´s all about marketing when it comes to different software solutions.

Torque 3D has become an excelent engine, and none engine is for novices unless you have money to through to the garbage. It's a great thing Torque is always inovating... while gamestudio upgrades are nothing special. Why won't gamestudio create a shadow mapping like torque... you just start the engine and the shadow is there... why won't gamestudio create a world builder....? Those kind of things call alot of people... 3d Gamestudio should give a seriously thought about that stuff and other things. In my opinion the only thing that makes this engine a great engine is the users that belong to this forum...
Regards,
Mythran