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Re: tell me something about this com [Re: ChrisB] #294965
10/22/09 08:56
10/22/09 08:56
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,225
germany
gri Offline
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gri  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,225
germany
Originally Posted By: H.F.Pohl
Some true words in this topic and I just want to add my 2 cents:

If the ones that claim A7 to be slow, outdated and without any workflow knew the then more expensive A4 they would pray each day and call the mythic jcl their god, A4 was and especially had nothing.
A7.8 maybe does not have everything you want but almost everything you need (except a painting tool). You don't need 12000x12000px textures that take a month or longer to be created, you don't need super mega hyper shader 5.0 and 1000 players MMO support - let alone TUSC. You need the right a7titude and fun in making games, that is everything.
Take Shigeru Miyamoto, the guys from Bungie/ Infinity Ward, John Carmack or [insert name here] and give them A7.8 Com or Pro, they will definitely make a great, great game. Maybe it's not the technical issues that make some of us say A7 is bug infested junk or whatsoever but the inner frustration, not about the tool but about ourselves. We realize we are not able to make the vision in our head become true and manifest itself in a full game which goes beyond the state of a prototype. But I think that's fine and all right as long as it still makes fun because most of us are hobby programmers after all.
The manual is great, the engine became very fast in model rendering (760 skinned and animated entities <=> 434000 polygons (debug panel) <=> 49 moving enemies (along paths) and stable 60 fps on a 3 years old notebook at 1680x1050), lite-C is easy to use and today there is almost every instruction you need. So everyone get out, drink a beer or two, think about a new type of game - YOU CANNOT COPY THE "BIG" GAMES - and make yourself happy while listening to your favourite music or - just an advice -: Bob Ross - Joy of Painting, 416 episodes of happiness and rest.

EDIT: And happy birthday Blink!


wow! This is exactly my opinion. ARTE or 3SAT showed a sequence of Bob Ross lessons a few months ago. GREAT!

As an independent developer there are some directions to go.

- casual games
- creating a cheap copy of WW3 or simulation game (and sell it in Pearl Catalog)
- niche products

My target was the niche market.
The plans was greatly and I started developing. Besides I explored the mechanism of Releaseconditions (like Age rating(USK)). Suddenly I had to realized that I never could release this type of game in Germany (Too bloody , violent with a strong "adult" taste).
Maybe someone knows this Heavy-Metal (Schwermetal) Comics from the 90's?
My motivation is even high but since months I rotate, throw, punsh the project to get an harmless style.



greetings,
gri


"Make a great game or kill it early" (Bruce Shelley, Ensemble Studios)
Re: tell me something about this com [Re: ChrisB] #294966
10/22/09 08:59
10/22/09 08:59
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,816
at my pc (duh)
darkinferno Offline
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darkinferno  Offline
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,816
at my pc (duh)
well your right, its not the artists, its the engine programmers that make the new implementations for the artists to use, i in no way want to achieve graphics of a AAA level, i just want them to not suck, if your game is fun ppl wont be staying for the graphics but you'll need a few visuals to catch alot of them in the first place, developers here should REALLY pay attention to the SOURCE engine, thats the quality most of us should be aiming for, not to make the next gears of war

Re: tell me something about this com [Re: darkinferno] #294969
10/22/09 09:33
10/22/09 09:33
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,852
A
alpha_strike Offline OP
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alpha_strike  Offline OP
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A

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,852
Very interesting statements. I personally think, that the A7 engine is a perfect tool to start in a great future.

Everybody who has the ability and the will to do good thinks, do not need high end tools.

A good painter do not need a "red marder hair brush" to paint a cool picture. A good airbrusher donīt need the Turbo Paasche High End Airbrush to paint cool pics. And a good game developer donīt need the crysis engine to make a cool and funny game.

And every fucking hard economic world situation has good start positions for indies. So donīt wait - just do it.

Your teacher or boss dont want to know how you do it - they only are interested in legal results.


@gri
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Maybe someone knows this Heavy-Metal (Schwermetal) Comics from the 90's?
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
I donīt think that you could ever top the shit of corben or bisley.
So do your violent game. Zapan and I are making 2 hardcore games and if you have
ideas to make them harder, please tell us about.

Last edited by alpha_strike; 10/22/09 09:36.
Re: tell me something about this com [Re: FBL] #294976
10/22/09 10:53
10/22/09 10:53
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 133
Germany, Passau
AlexDeloy Offline
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AlexDeloy  Offline
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 133
Germany, Passau
Originally Posted By: Firoball

Oh and one more point: Do you HONESTLY think that someone who's turned off from default textures is ever going to complete a whole game? People with the right attitude will not be stopped by that, and with the wrong attitude you will fail in most cases. Because then the person itself is the source of the problem, not the engine.


I totally comply with you firo, of course you need the right attitude (or a7titude how it's spelled these days) to complete a whole game. Out beloved (A7) Engine is capable of doing far more things than the average user can realize.

What I wanted to say with the default texture example was: 3dgs provides very easy access to "game development" or better "clicking together a simple template shooter", when those "developers" then look at the screenshots from unity or torque they could feel somewhat disappointed. I think if the included materials like Textures/Models etc. were of higher quality, the motivation to explore the capabilities (of the engine AND oneself) would grow.

I state that least People starting development with 3dgs are fully-qualified programmers/designers, many of them are just curious like we were when we purchased A3 (You may not remember but we met at the very first dusmania in Stuttgart) and discovered a new hobby or even profession.

My position is that when a better part of your customers are inexperienced with the whole process of game development, you should provide them a good toolset (And now with GED the provided tools aren't that bad if MED keeps up with the others) and good materials to work with to preserve motivation.

Re: tell me something about this com [Re: alpha_strike] #294977
10/22/09 10:53
10/22/09 10:53
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 76
V
V_Software Offline
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V_Software  Offline
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V

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 76
Originally Posted By: Firoball
And as slin has mentioned, Developia, once the biggest german portal for indie/hobby game development, is in a state of decay. You get the impression the whole Acknex community is bigger than the german game developer community.
yes that's right too, this is a problem the whole Situation here in germany has to face with it. And here the Acknex Community can be proud of it, it's still one of the best and most active communitys in the indie gamedevelopment world.

But the point is that we need new people that stay with this engine. that's the real problem. Here are a lot of people who knows this engine since so many years, and that's why still around here to support or simply here because they love the acknex engine. But to bring new people here it needs a new presentation, without it I don't think this engine can stil say hello I'm here take me to make with me your game, I'm a really good technology etc...
We know the power and good goals of Acknex, but the the rest of the world not. New Visitors don't see the power of this engine, just because it hasn't been enhanced by it's most users. There are some great Examples made by some guys here, but that's it. It's sad to see this great engine and package to not receive the wide acceptance that it deserves. Maybe they should think twice of a new Name for this product. I've seen to much bad opinions about this engine in several forums, most of them see it as an click-together-wannabe gamedev tool. We know wen can make a lot with it if we really spend time, concentration and hard work on it. And we can say so much beautiful thinks about it, but it doesn't change the impression that in 2009 there is less enthusiasm with this product than it was a few years ago. I hope that this game project that will maybe developed by conitec will help the engine to get more noticed by the next generation of hobbyist developers.

this said, I wanna mention that I love this package. My Words spent here are only to express my opinion why probably people stay out or don't remain here a lot. And it doesn't mean that guys who go off don't are able to make games with other technologys, most of them go maybe off because they don't have the right attitude but a lot of them went off too because they've seen the limits or didn't even need to see it but can imagine it. well I allways turn back to see wheter it goes forward here or not, even as a guest, because the gamestudio is important to me, I've been grown up with it in sense of creating games. Hope to see in future others too how they make their first steps with it.



ps: btw sorry for my bad english grin I have to face an italian-german-english-french mix of language in my life and none of them are perfect lol but I am fluent in italian as beeing an italian guy and german because I've been grown up here in germany grin

Re: tell me something about this com [Re: V_Software] #294979
10/22/09 11:14
10/22/09 11:14
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,816
at my pc (duh)
darkinferno Offline
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darkinferno  Offline
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,816
at my pc (duh)
just to show you what a bad outer "SHELL" can do, i was talkin to a prospective artist for my team and he was telling me about work he did with unreal3 and cry2 and so on, then he asked which game engine i use and honestly I WAS SCARED TO SAY "GAMESTUDIO" because it doesnt sound like a professional engine, it sounds like a cheap click together crap, like gamestudio, i had to send him the name with a few videos from the shader contest before i felt satisfied.. i dont care much if the functionalities change ATM, but it NEEDS a better 'shell'

shell:
interface style
color scheme
web design
demos
free textures
free models

and the dumb thing is, the community is willing to do all of the above? as anyone ever pitched the idea to them in the 'ask developers' section?

longest rant evar [Re: darkinferno] #294984
10/22/09 11:52
10/22/09 11:52
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,206
Innsbruck, Austria
sPlKe Offline
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sPlKe  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,206
Innsbruck, Austria
remember "Rage of Tyr"? yeah.. i thought so...
gotta few old A6 shots of that around... i could send them to conitec maybe its of some use.
okay conitec here is the deal:

ill do you a website. if you want something to see, check out the icevalk site (www.icevalk-entertainment.com) my ezekiel rage site (www.ezekiel-rage.at) the com migratio website (www.commigratio.at) the goth thing website (www.goth-thing.at) and a few more around the world i cant remember anymore.
thats what im doing. like the style talk back to me, dont like the style then dont talk back to me its that simple. got some nice gallery stuff going on aswell.

also, you REALLY need better artwork to show off on your website.
you need moar user feedback. feedback from users that actually finished games. you should also feature a finished games list on your website liek you did with the A4 site.

you could also offer a money prize for a contest for users to create a real game with good artwork, or provide alrtwork for users to create a short sample game that shows the engine powers. a free demo video or demo game with every trial edition, on the download page and as ad whereever youre mentioned. and get that MAC support going...

further more, your recource page needs an overhaul. drastically.
there needs to be archives for low poly models, high poly models ect...
i dont want to scroll through hundret low poly models that basiaclly suck (90% of them do) to find the one good model im looking for. invest some money to create a few good free recources.
the AUM is good and all, but the web design (if you can call it that) sucks ass and the way tor ead it even more. download a rar file, unzip it to read a CHM file is hardly intuitive. a web based aum, maybe open up the chm file directly, i dunno, just something more...

im not saysing you MUST do that... but youre nintendo now.. in 2004. and if youre not showing off your Wii now, you have NO chance against sony or micro$oft...

as mentioned above:
casual games, niche games, and so on...
that works. it reallly does. you dont need cry engine or whatever other shit they call it nowadays to create a fun game. you need a good idea, concept, talented artists...
look for serious sam, team fortress, XIII...
we cant do crysis but damn, we can at least make our games fun and with a fitting style...

and you can help...

you want to know the main problem about this community?

ITS THE FUCKING MONEY!

everyone just has money on their heads.
back when i was a idiot (i still am, mind you, but you get the point) if one needed help, you got help. seriously.
but nowadays, whatever it is yorue trying to do, its always:
what are you paying?

seriously...
as serious user i say, other people who have talend should offer their services for projects that actually can work for less money and instead go for the percentage route.
i dont say do it for free. you could, but with all the losers in those boards who want to do an MMORPG the next killer shooter or whatever shit is going on in the jobs section its hard to find someone who is serious.
but if you see people that are doing serious stuff, games that will be completed, why not offer your help? do you really think someone who already compleetd games ripps your work off? i doubt that...

stop caring so much about money. i gladly mention SLIN as one of the best people this community has. the other one being a close friend of mine i wont share his name becaus ei know he hates that. then there is HeelX. And im sure there are more people i never had the pleasure to work with.
BUt if not for Slin, my friend or HeelX, i would have NOTHING now.
NOTHING...
and they didnt ask for money. they did it for free. i offered them a chance to get cash when the game sells, which of course they gladly accepted. and im paying them off as soon as money from their respective games roll in.
but they know that, if i dont make money, they dont make money either...

HOW is an indoe going to pay the rates some people here have? i know that a few users here have great rates. Dexsoft comes to mind. or others im not sure i can name here. i know their rates are good. but some others...
170 or mroe bucks for a 9 hour job sounds like little, but then he tells ya he needs five nine hour days to do a model. who pays 850 bucks for ONE model? who has that kind of money?

to finish my rant: that we are where we are is our own fault. i would offer my services as designer and writer to anyone who needs them, but seriously, everyone ehre thinks he is a game designer, so why should i stop them from failing?
point is, if you share a little bit more, thing sget better. share... like tutorials from back in the days. like some free artwork, previews, whatever...

Last edited by sPlKe; 10/22/09 12:35.
Re: longest runt evar [Re: sPlKe] #294989
10/22/09 12:23
10/22/09 12:23
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,816
at my pc (duh)
darkinferno Offline
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darkinferno  Offline
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,816
at my pc (duh)
love your points spike, very truem also your website looks more pro than GSs homepage, lol, which says alot for a "company", another big problem is, people need to know their talents: we arent all designers and coders, if you see someone working on a project similar to yours, why not say, hey, lets chat a bit and see if theres familiar ground, maybe merge projects, you'd be surprised of the decrease in dev time...

ofcourse we cant help everyone, come to think of it, we cant help alot but we CAN help those who seem to be going somewhere, and another advice, i hear ppl screaming, we need cloth physics, soft bodies, particle instancing but umm guess what, is it REALLY a NEED!?

ppl need to stop working on unecessary game features, break your game down into WHAT matters, that it, THROW out EVERYTHING else, when your done with the CORE elements, then you can come ask about eyecandy features, your gonna spend 2 days trying to implement soft shadows and when its done, you still have nothing...

Re: tell me something about this com [Re: alpha_strike] #294994
10/22/09 13:02
10/22/09 13:02
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,838
take me down to the paradise c...
Cowabanga Offline
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Cowabanga  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,838
take me down to the paradise c...
I'm not a fanboy of Acknex, but if you gave A7 to a big company, they'll make a huge nice project.
It's not about the engine. It's about the DEVELOPERS.

I know, Gamestudio has some lacks, but it's still worth the money!
And i like to call it "Acknex", instead of "Gamestudio". It sounds like a cheap noob engine.

Re: tell me something about this com [Re: Cowabanga] #294997
10/22/09 13:24
10/22/09 13:24
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,816
at my pc (duh)
darkinferno Offline
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darkinferno  Offline
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,816
at my pc (duh)
yh but when you say acknex, noone knows it, and gamestdio sounds cheap as well

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