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Re: unity declares war! [Re: FBL] #297530
11/08/09 00:41
11/08/09 00:41
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
J
JibbSmart Offline
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JibbSmart  Offline
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J

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
Quote:
Regarding math and vector / matrix calculation. Actually sometimes it is even better and faster to setup your own routines.
While this is very rarely useful, it still does have its circumstances where it is, and if you don't mind I thought I'd bring up a relatively recent example:

A while ago in the future forums I requested bones animation to be performed on the GPU instead of the CPU. I demonstrated, with models of ~50 000 polys each, each rigged and animated for bones animation, that while no animation let me have about 110 of these entities on-screen at once before going below 60fps, if they were animated I'd drop to about 30fps as soon as the 4th entity was created. I threw together a (fairly rough) bunch of functions and a shader that let me perform the animation on the GPU (this required calculating matrices for each of the bones, hence the relevance of this example), and I had around 96 on-screen before dropping below 60 fps.

That's 4.8 million bones-animated polygons at once.

Now, we'll probably have features that will let us do this in a much less "hacky" way soon (jcl expressed in that thread that a flag for GPU animation could be useful, and then if you look at the files in the latest MMO test there's an example using a shader to do bones animation, and it appears to use some new built-in variables and matrices that aren't available in the latest public beta grin ), but for a short while my plan was to bust out a 1v1 fighting game, bones animated, with each character having up to 100 000 polys (it seems we could handle even more than that, considering there'll only be two characters on screen and the environment won't need a significant amount, but 100 000 in combination with a normal map should be plenty to ensure there are no jagged edges on the whole thing).

As another example, for a while I planned to skip Quaternion->Euler angle conversion altogether by building a Quaternion matrix and doing the rotation in a shader (collision detection wouldn't be an issue because it was intended for situations with very round objects [or at least entities that can get away with a spherical hull], and then later on to be handled by my own physics). Now A7 has a nice function for converting a Quaternion to an Euler angle anyway.

I know I re-invent the wheel a lot, but one thing I like about A7 is how easy it is to re-invent little bits at a time grin

That's not to say I wouldn't prefer a more OO-approach to vector and matrix calculations, a la Unity.

Jibb


Formerly known as JulzMighty.
I made KarBOOM!
Re: unity declares war! [Re: FBL] #297541
11/08/09 05:59
11/08/09 05:59
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 7,441
ventilator Offline
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ventilator  Offline
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 7,441
Originally Posted By: Firoball
I think vec_ commands are quite nice.

wouldn't you like to have the possibility to write vector calculations in a similar notation to what you have learned in school instead of writing many lines of vec_ commands?

Originally Posted By: Firoball
I hate matrices. They are a bunch of numbers which mean nothing to me when I look at them.
I feel more comfortable when working with angles and vectors since I see directly what I'm doing.
It is true that for 3d calculations matrices are the best way, but I'm happy when I don't have to use them outside that area laugh

i know how to work with transformation matrices and i also know how to interpret the content of a transformation matrix but i think what really happens during a matrix*matrix multiplication is very hard to imagine/visualize for (most) human brains. matrices probably are better suited for computers. laugh

Re: unity declares war! [Re: ventilator] #297560
11/08/09 10:47
11/08/09 10:47
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,904
H
HeelX Offline
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HeelX  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,904
Transformations with matrices are indeed very unintuitive and super fast. I am currently attending an introductory course about autonomous robotics and to keep the matter short in the end we "should" know all basics how to move a robot arm around involving forward and inverse kinematics.

I already learned a lot about transformations and it is actually for a computer super easy to calculate things and vector stuff when you do it right. I can especially recommend chapter 1 of the book "Introduction to Robotics, Mechanics and Control". Although it is focused on applying all the math on robotics but essentially it is all the same for the day to day vector calculations you need in a game. Seriously. Read and understand it - then you become a matrix guru in a vec_set-World ^^

Just to throw that in... it seems we are going off-topic.

Last edited by HeelX; 11/08/09 10:48.
Re: unity declares war! [Re: HeelX] #297569
11/08/09 12:06
11/08/09 12:06
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer Offline
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Pappenheimer  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
Originally Posted By: HeelX
Just to throw that in... it seems we are going off-topic.

I don't think anybody cares, its Morbius, and - most important, it is very interesting: more, please! wink

Re: unity declares war! [Re: HeelX] #297570
11/08/09 12:09
11/08/09 12:09
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 9,859
F
FBL Offline
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FBL  Offline
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F

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 9,859
Offtopic doesn't matter. I think we have two more Unity threads left... tongue

I'm quite comfortable with the vec commands. Really.
I hate the notation for maths we had in school. It always confused me when looking at it.

Also matrices seem to be a thing which just does not fit into my head. After some time I always have to start from 0 and learn everything again because I just can't get used to it.
That's really disappointing when seeing other people handling this stuff as if it was super easy. And I end up doing trial and error until it works grin



Re: unity declares war! [Re: FBL] #297628
11/08/09 22:30
11/08/09 22:30
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 76
V
V_Software Offline
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V_Software  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 76
I don't know if it's important but the channel of the stanford university in youtube has a good collection of robotics course grin
I've seen Course | Introduction to Robotics with 16 full lecture videos (but I did only see the first 3) and there are videos of other courses as well (example: modern physics, and interesting for games the course of machine learning, and some programming courses)

to matrices, I have to admit that I didn't understand for so long time matrices until I've red a chapter of an directx8 book of gallileo press(only german) It's a really bad and to simple book ( you don't learn much you do what he want lol) but I found the matrices explenation there really good. maybe sometimes the simple things are better than the professional super infos hehe
but I admit too that I still forget sometimes the order of which matrices comes first in an computation. so I end up to cursing with my pc and finally google and then tell myself you idiot It's so simple hahaha

this said, have a good start into the new week guys byeee

ps: Inverse Kinematics is a big topic there at the videos grin

Last edited by V_Software; 11/08/09 22:32.
Re: unity declares war! [Re: V_Software] #297643
11/09/09 00:55
11/09/09 00:55
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,206
Innsbruck, Austria
sPlKe Offline
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sPlKe  Offline
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Posts: 4,206
Innsbruck, Austria
i have a soft matrace. i like sleeping comfortable...

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