You see again, they are using Islam as an excuse to their pedophilia. In Islam, there is no lower-age limit on marrige but, both sides have to be biologically complete adults, i.e. should be completed their puberty. now in our time this does not happen before 17-18 years of age on most countries and environments. Let alone having sex, you cannot even marry(i.e. just marry, dont have sex.) a 12year old. But again here we are, extremists making it sound like Islam allows that.

I never said, that's what you do in Islam. I said "their own traditions". Meaning them, the extremists.

Please, don't try so hard to be offended.

EDIT: Nevermind, I just read your post too quickly. Yes of course you are right. But that is what gives them the authority to pursue these goals. Claim that it's tradition and BANG! you get your rights to do so, because god forbid (no pun intended) we cannot disallow people to follow their own traditions!

I am not offended but i guess you already got that?

If they are trying to pass every random fantasy of theirs as tradition, they should make me a minister or a cabinet officer for those things(not that i am that religious). you know they ask me if this is really what Islamic tradition says or not I am guessing i would get a gazillion death threats everyday.

First of all, there is no more against portraiing Mohammed as a non-muslim than not worshipping (or even eating) cows as a non-hindu. Muslims should tolerate that as much as hindus do.

To clarify this, I dont't hate normal/moderate/peaceful muslims. But I don't like terrorists, and we shouldn't let them take away our freedom of speech.

About the Quran justifying terrorism: I admit that I never read the Quran myself (I don't have the time for that, at least atm) but I read the following from various sources:
There is a sura that forbids you to kill (but as in the Bible there is the problem that it might only mean don't kill other muslims). And there is an other sura that explicitly forbids you to kill yourself ("You shalt not destroy yourself").
But, in some parts of the Quran the it does tell you to kill infidels (but I don't know in which context). This includes a backdoor to terrorism, because there is a sura that tells you that it if you kill infidels, it does not matter if you kill yourself. This seems to justify terrorism inthe eye of terrorists. Furthermore, it becomes attractive, because when killing infidels you can escape judgement and get straight to heaven and get 72 virgins (but the arabic text is ambigious, it could also mean 72 white raisins ).
That's how I understood it. Quadraxas (or any other muslim), if anything of this is incorrect, just tell it, I'm eager to learn^^.

But about Islam being violent, what about this?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VselUW4Aoxg
Later in the full video (search for "The Big Debate"), the muslim scholar admits that in a muslim country, the penalty for apostasy is still death.

About the Mohammed cartoons in 2005:
In "The God Delusion" I read that some muslim who saw the cartoons in Denmark brought it to the muslim public world and added some more, offending pictures to it, including a gorilla that has nothing to do with the cartoons.
But even considering that they got a more "offending" version of the cartoons, this is no excuse for the violence that followed. Expression of free speech was followed by violence. Also, you should have some humor and be able to laugh about caricatures of your own religion. People ridicule about politicians and even other religions all the time and no one gets violent. In christianity, it's forbidden to make a picture of god and this has also happened and no one ever complained.

Also, I somewhere read that you could consider terrorists and parts of the islamic world as 500-1000 years behind in religious development, which means, they are on the stage of crusaders and whitchburners. Maybe an interesting thought. I dunno^^

http://www.brogames.de/Mohammed.jpg

i sense an endless discussion coming so i keep it short before i back out of this for obvious reasons:

no matter what you believe, you ARE NOT to kill or hurt people. period. anyone who does that should be punished equally, no matter of race or beliefs. and thats something thats just not happening as of yet, for "honor crimes" are punished less than other crimes, at least in europe, because one is afraid of being called a racist, something that happens much too fast nowadays.
in the end, every extreme is bad one way or the other, and humanity should learn to shut the fuck up, think logically about something and make religios crimes rate as hard as any other crime, nothing more nothing less.
we have a system that seperates religion from jurisdiction at least in my country and it should stay this way.

believe wht you want to believe, just dont force others to be on your side. you would want the same for you...

with this said, Im out, never reading this thread again!

@alpha99

"Just think this way,if you have a son/daughter/families will you ever let anyone to redicule/harm them in anyway?The same with us,only the differences is we prioritize our religion first as this act of drawing really forbidden in our religion,no we won't bring this to justice with violence but with the rules on the country where this happening."

So you basicly say follow our rules and it will be fine, you simple impose muslim sharia on non-muslims. And you mix speech with action harming someone has nothing to do with speech.

Well yes I've read the Quran and these so called extremists are pretty close to the text but of course you will deny it. Its funny the more I learn about Islam the more Iam repelled by its teachings.


To Quadraxas here is your problem these extremists know the teachings of islam, the quotes you bring I know however you seem to have no understanding of what bases of a free society "Free speech is not the freedom of insulting" are. Freedom of Speech was always thought of as protection of things that are controversial no one needs to protect nice speech.

Sam Harris explains it better why your views are so problematic.
Sam Harris on Islam

He very much gets to the root of the problem by also refering to the teachings of the Quran.

Islam needs a movement of enlightment not deniers of what islam teaches or not.

@Lukas, what infidelity is explained in such context, which generally does NOT mean non-Muslims.

Also, Qur'an never allows one to kill themselves, your life and other's lives is god-given and only god can take it. Exceptions for killing others being war and that kind of stuff explained in Qur'an. That's pretty clear in Qur'an and hadith, killing yourself in anyway, is not allowed. So, suicide-bombing is not martyrdom. In the event of being a captive in enemy hands(i.e. in war), you are not allowed to suicide either. In fact, if you kill yourself it would count as you are suicided which is not allowed, but if enemy forces kill you, it counts as martyrdom which is a sacred rank.

Backdoors for terrorism is people making it sound like Islam allows it, but in fact it's not, it may even forbid it. Like, the pedophilia topic above, there is no backdoor, they just make it sound like there is. It could be that they are mis-interpreted it(i.e. the way they want it to be, not as hadith or Quran explains. not that Quran is unclear.), or as i said above brain-washed and being used by other people. Also even if they show such places as their standing point, they would contradict a lot of other places of Quran, because that they are not doing as Quran actually explains, they just hear what they want to and act accordingly. They are overseeing the fact that the Quran is a complete book, all parts supporting each other, acting by only parts of it can only be a cheap excuse.

As i said, i am not that religious, i only read Quran twice completely to see what it explains for myself. I did not see any point, that Quran asks me to kill someone, in my current state and position.(like, we are not in war etc.)



exactly. There are large groups of people trying to maintain such movement but guess what, extremists are against this too. Still these movements are happening, and recognized by the world, i just hope more people gets to know these movements and stop fearing Islam. Even, as far as i know, a university in states, has a institute about such movement.

Also, the book seems interesting, i'll buy it and read sometime.

If you use your freedom to offend others you abuse your freedom. That's where your personal freedom should stop. It's that simple. I don't care if this action turns against muslims, christians, owners of cats or users of a certain after shave. It's easy to see that it will offend some people, people who have never done anything bad to you, people you don't even know and that's why it's bullshit.

I don't care for such a day for free speech.
The important things are others.

Let's mention a history of cause and effect:
If the Western nations didn't invade and exploit the Muslim countries, leaving a mess of corrupted elites behind when they left, we wouldn't have any problem with such extremists.
Means, if the Western nations wouldn't take the freedom to colonize and ruin other societies, the Western individuals had no reason to fear to use their freedom of speech.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like extremists, I don't like killing or hurting or bombing or other violence, and I don't say that they are doing right, they are idiots, but to make idiots a general problem, you need a swamp where they are growing, and those idiots got their swamps to grow, and the Western nations had their chance to avoid the arising and expansion of such swamps, but they didn't take care.
That's it.
It's nothing but the foam at the peaks of the waves of mud many people in the Muslim countries are forced to live in.

@Uhrwerk you have no idea what freedom of speech really means and also you mix up action and speech.

@Pappenheimer so in other words we are just getting what we deserve, there is only one problem look up Jefferson and Islam, Slavery,North Africa. Expansion of the ottman empire, you should also look up Sam Harris book.

If the west is reponsible why are the first victims of die growing jihadi movements other more peacefull and enlightened muslims.