Hilbert's Hotel

Diskussionsforum zur Unendlichkeit: Theismus, Atheismus, Primzahlen, Unsterblichkeit, das Universum...
Discussing Infinity: theism and atheism, prime numbers, immortality, cosmology, philosophy...

Gamestudio Links
Zorro Links
Newest Posts
Trading Journey
by howardR. 04/28/24 09:55
basik85278
by basik85278. 04/28/24 08:56
Zorro Trader GPT
by TipmyPip. 04/27/24 13:50
Help with plotting multiple ZigZag
by M_D. 04/26/24 20:03
Data from CSV not parsed correctly
by jcl. 04/26/24 11:18
M1 Oversampling
by jcl. 04/26/24 11:12
Why Zorro supports up to 72 cores?
by jcl. 04/26/24 11:09
AUM Magazine
Latest Screens
The Bible Game
A psychological thriller game
SHADOW (2014)
DEAD TASTE
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (blaurock), 750 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
wandaluciaia, Mega_Rod, EternallyCurious, howardR, 11honza11
19049 Registered Users
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 2 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: Joey] #356602
02/02/11 22:18
02/02/11 22:18
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134
Netherlands
Joozey Offline
Expert
Joozey  Offline
Expert

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134
Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Joey
That's correct (although the one traveling is the younger one in the end). The thing is that the one traveling away and then back changes his inertial system (e.g. by accelerating) which in the end cuts down his time consumption. The acceleration itself doesn't have an effect, though, as you're accelerating and decelerating. If you could change your inertial system without acceleration this would have the same effect.

This would allow us to build a time machine. *want*

vec_set( player, vector(x,y,z) )?
Since "inertial system" is just a fancy word for "we take this point as the origin of space", I could argue that space is just a made-up concept and our entire universe is defined by accelerations, thereby acceleration is the effect. But you could just as easily argue back your point of view tongue.

What interests me is when you take the cosmic background radiation as inertial system. Then the space in our universe shrinks inwards instead of extending outwards!


Click and join the 3dgs irc community!
Room: #3dgs
Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: Joozey] #356615
02/02/11 22:54
02/02/11 22:54
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,615
Cambridge
Joey Offline
Expert
Joey  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,615
Cambridge
Well, inertial systems have a velocity too, not only an origin. So it's the change from one velocity to another which causes the dilation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox

Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: Joey] #356620
02/02/11 23:04
02/02/11 23:04
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134
Netherlands
Joozey Offline
Expert
Joozey  Offline
Expert

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134
Netherlands
Yes I know that, but isn't "the change from one velocity to another" defined as "accelerating"? I think this is just a matter of definitions, a conceptual thing, but physically we mean to describe the same. That's what I try to say.

Then again maybe teleporting isn't describable by the true definition of acceleration, unless teleporting without acceleration is not physically possible.

Yes I agree change in velocity is a more general description than acceleration, and thus be the preferred term to use.

Last edited by Joozey; 02/02/11 23:11.

Click and join the 3dgs irc community!
Room: #3dgs
Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: Joozey] #356656
02/03/11 08:36
02/03/11 08:36
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,640
Earth
Germanunkol Offline
Expert
Germanunkol  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,640
Earth
Joey's question hasn't been answered yet, has it? Cause I always wondered the same thing... My Physics teacher tried to explain it to me, and I never got it...

All Movement is relative, as far as we know. So if I move away at the speed of light, I could also say YOU'RE moving away at the speed of light, so how does the universe "know" which one will have to age slower?


~"I never let school interfere with my education"~
-Mark Twain
Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: Germanunkol] #356658
02/03/11 08:56
02/03/11 08:56
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,232
Australia
EvilSOB Offline
Expert
EvilSOB  Offline
Expert

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,232
Australia
I was under the belief that it was the "relative speed" that caused the dilation, not "change of velocity".

Someone mentioned that the space-shuttle clocks ned adjusting after a flight...
I have also 'heard' that the clocks in the GPS-satellites also need adjusting occasionally,
and they are not 'changing velocity' to my eye, but they are 'travelling' faster
than us due to their greater distance from the center of the earth's axis.


"There is no fate but what WE make." - CEO Cyberdyne Systems Corp.
A8.30.5 Commercial
Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: EvilSOB] #356671
02/03/11 11:25
02/03/11 11:25
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,615
Cambridge
Joey Offline
Expert
Joey  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,615
Cambridge
That's exactly the problem. Relativity itself does only tell you that if you're moving, your clock is slower. Then you tell me that I am moving, so my clock is slower. Of course both are right.
The thing which causes a permanent "shift" of time, if you so will, is changing the inertial system (however that is done). That effect is hard to explain in few words but in principle that's the answer. That question is called "twin paradox" (see my link above).

edit: @evilsob: the problem with the gps satellites is not their greater speed but their constant acceleration; this is not a question of special relativity but of general relativity and much much harder.

Last edited by Joey; 02/03/11 11:27.
Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: Joey] #356674
02/03/11 11:44
02/03/11 11:44
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134
Netherlands
Joozey Offline
Expert
Joozey  Offline
Expert

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134
Netherlands
The simplest and shortcoming answer is that the one who undergoes accelerating forces move slower through time. It's the acceleration (or as stated above, change in velocity) that causes time dilation, not the velocity itself.


Click and join the 3dgs irc community!
Room: #3dgs
Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: Joozey] #356714
02/03/11 16:34
02/03/11 16:34
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,640
Earth
Germanunkol Offline
Expert
Germanunkol  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,640
Earth
Joozey, I Don't get it. In my eyes, what you said doesn't answer my problem.
If I drive away in a car, you'll say I'm accelerating. But then I tell you that relative to me, you're accelerating in the opposite direction. And, apart from the direction, your acceleration is exactly the same as mine. So we should both age slower, and both age "the same amount" slower.

Joey, I might find some time to look at the link, right now I'm in a rush...


~"I never let school interfere with my education"~
-Mark Twain
Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: Germanunkol] #356730
02/03/11 17:15
02/03/11 17:15
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,206
Innsbruck, Austria
sPlKe Offline
Expert
sPlKe  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,206
Innsbruck, Austria
space shuttle clocks need adjusting not because of the movement but because of the fact that time moves slower in space. and while this has something todo with movement, its not the movement of the clock, but of the earth. one ages slower in space. in fact, if you COULD travel at near light speed for ten years away from earth and then return for another ten years, you aged 20 years while on earth roughly 400 years passed (or something).

HOWEVER if you love on a planet bigger than earth, you age faster...

Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: Germanunkol] #356736
02/03/11 17:31
02/03/11 17:31
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208
Germany
Error014 Offline
Expert
Error014  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208
Germany
Quote:
One thing which always bothers me is the example you use and everyone else states. If you say that you move at a considerable fraction relative to earth, thus your clock moves slower, I (the one on earth) say that I am moving at a considerable fraction relative to you, thus my clock moves slower.

Anyone knows the solution?


The standard reply you'll get when you ask people is that since you had to return to get back to earth, at that point you had to accelerate, and thus special relativity isn't valid anymore, and the problem has to be solved with general relativity.
This, however, is not correct. The truth is that the equation for time dilation you are using is only valid for the above, simplified case of constant movement with no acceleration. So here's the short reply: When the twin is returning home, the inertial system you've been using CHANGES. It suddenly moves in a different direction - that's not something inertial systems generally do ;), and is the cause of the problem: In your calculation, you've been assuming that you're calculating stuff in a inertial system, but you're not. That false assumption leads to the wrong result.


EDIT:

Quote:
because of the fact that time moves slower in space.


Nebolous statements like that really don't help much, don't ya think?
Relativity predicts TWO effects that change the "flow of time", if you will. One is described by special relativity - what is usually referred to as time dilation. It can be summarized as "Moving clocks go slower".

The second effect is due to general relativity. Masses curve spacetime, in other words, it changes the geometry of it. The time you're measuring (the "proper time") is nothing but the length of your path through spacetime (disregarding units). Now, obviously, if masses curve spacetime, it only makes sense that the lengths of your paths change, too (and thus your measured proper time).

Whats fascinating is that for satellites, bothe effects actually work in different ways: They're moving quiet fast relative to the earth, so that makes their clocks go SLOWER, yet at the same time, the mass of earth makes their clocks go FASTER compared to the one of someone on earth (the closer you are to masses, the slower your clocks go).





Perhaps this post will get me points for originality at least.

Check out Dungeon Deities! It's amazing and will make you happy, successful and almost certainly more attractive! It might be true!
Page 2 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Moderated by  jcl, Lukas, old_bill, Spirit 

Kompaktes W�rterbuch des UnendlichenCompact Dictionary of the Infinite


Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1