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Re: nuclear meltdown in japan [Re: Joey] #363927
03/15/11 16:44
03/15/11 16:44
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134
Netherlands
Joozey Offline
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Joozey  Offline
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Well that's the point of commercial space travel; it's not expensive anymore. Your vacation to space is estimated to cost as much as an expedition to the northpole. Maybe cheaper if they also carry some nuclear waste in the back.


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Re: nuclear meltdown in japan [Re: Joozey] #363934
03/15/11 17:05
03/15/11 17:05
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 7,441
ventilator Offline OP
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ventilator  Offline OP
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Posts: 7,441
cheap and commercial != safe in many cases. laugh

i would rather wait for a space elevator if you really want to put the waste into space.

but the solution mentioned by michael sounds like it would make more sense.

Re: nuclear meltdown in japan [Re: ventilator] #363947
03/15/11 17:32
03/15/11 17:32
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 256
USA , NY
msmith2468 Offline
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USA , NY
I could see the headlines now.

" a rocket full of nuclear waste exploded mid flight. Scientists say the nuclear cloud will circle the earth several times and is urging everyone in the world to stay indoors"

However takeing the nuclear waste to space and shooting it at the sun is an ideal plan once we have a secure way to space.


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www.mikeswickedgames.com
Re: nuclear meltdown in japan [Re: msmith2468] #363965
03/15/11 18:25
03/15/11 18:25
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,154
Damocles_ Offline
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Damocles_  Offline
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Storing nuclear waste is an artificially hyped danger. (in contrast to the powerplants blowing up)

Seriously, its not that hard to store nuclear waste in a pretty save place.

But for that you need to drop these "moral" limitations,
to store this stuff in other countries, who might have better
locations for that.
What is needed in the end is a geologically inactive and
dry place underground.
Im shure its not that hard to find, when not limiting the search
to the own country.

(flying this stuff to space would be the silliest sollution,
as mentined when it blows up, wich is much more likely.)

Re: nuclear meltdown in japan [Re: Damocles_] #363967
03/15/11 18:48
03/15/11 18:48
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,615
Cambridge
Joey Offline
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Joey  Offline
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Cambridge
And furthermore, as soon as we have breeder reactors, U238 will become a valuable resource.

Re: nuclear meltdown in japan [Re: Joey] #363984
03/15/11 20:36
03/15/11 20:36
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134
Netherlands
Joozey Offline
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I guess we can use 1% of the sahara to make a nuclear waste dumpsite, until we can recycle the stuff tongue.

About exploding rockets: commercial space travelling involves airplanes and shuttles, not rockets.

Last edited by Joozey; 03/15/11 20:37.

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Re: nuclear meltdown in japan [Re: Joozey] #363998
03/15/11 21:38
03/15/11 21:38
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,439
Red Dwarf
Michael_Schwarz Offline
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Here some actual reliable information (aka. not mass media hyped) about what is going on with the nuclear power plants from the ACTUAL Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency in Japan. (http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/index.html)

Seismic Damage Information (the 23rd Release)
(As of 19:30 March 14, 2011)
Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) confirmed the current
situation of Onagawa NPS, Tohoku Electric Power Co., Inc; Fukushima
Dai-ichi and Fukushima Dai-ni NPSs, Tokyo Electric Power Co., Inc. as
follows:
1. The status of operation at Power Stations (Number of automatic shutdown
units: 10)
○Fukushima Dai-ichi Nuclear Power Station, Tokyo Electric Power Co., Inc.
(TEPCO)
(Okuma-machi and Futaba-machi, Futaba-gun, Fukushima Prefecture )
(1) The status of operation
Unit 1 (460MWe): automatic shutdown
Unit 2 (784MWe): automatic shutdown
Unit 3 (784MWe): automatic shutdown
Unit 4 (784MWe): in periodic inspection outage
Unit 5 (784MWe): in periodic inspection outage
Unit 6 (1,100MWe): in periodic inspection outage
(2) Readings at monitoring posts
The measurement of radioactive materials in the environmental
monitoring area near the site boundary conducted by a monitoring car in
considering the wind flow, confirmed the increase in the radioactivity
compared to the radioactivity at 07:30, March 14.
MP3 (Monitoring at North West of Site Boundary for Unit 2) :
231.1 micro Sv/h (14:30 March 14)
MP4 (Monitoring at north- west of Site Boundary for Unit 2 :
56.4 micro Sv/h(04:08 March 14)

→29.8 micro Sv/h(14:14 March 14)
MP5 (Monitoring at north-west Site Boundary for Unit 2)
6.1 micro Sv/h(14:02 March 14)
MP6 (Monitoring at the west –southwest Site Boundary for Unit 2)
3.70 micro Sv/h(16:10 March 14)
→4.2 micro Sv/h(12:34 March 14)
MP7 (Monitoring at the west –southwest Site Boundary for Unit 2)
6.1 micro Sv/h (12:16, March 14)
(3) Wind direction/wind speed (as of 14:14, March 14) at MP-4
Wind direction: North North West
Wind Speed: 2.6 m/

(5) Report concerning other malfunction
・ No fire report notified to NISA
・ TEPCO reported to NISA in accordance with Article 10 of the Act on
Special Measures Concerning Nuclear Emergency Preparedness
regarding Fukushima Dai-ichi, Units 1,2 and 3. (15:42 March 11)
・ TEPCO report to NISA the event in accordance with Article 15 of the
Act for Special Measures Concerning Nuclear Emergency Preparedness
regarding Fukushima Dai-ichi, Units 1 and 2.(notified to NISA at 16:36
March 11)
・ For Unit 1: Sea water is being injected to the Primary Containment
Vessel (PCV)via the Fire Extinguishing System Line (Start up 11:55
March 13)
→Interruption of injection (01:10 March 14)
・ For Unit 2: Water Injection Function has been sustained. (14:00 March
13)
・ For Unit 2: Reactor Water Level is decreasing. (13:18 March 14)
・ For Unit 2: Seawater injection to the Reactor Pressure Vessel (RPV) is
ready through Fire Extinguishing System Line. (19:20 March 14)
・ For Unit 3: Fresh water is being injected to the PCV via Fire
Extinguishing System Line(FES)(11:55 March 13)
・ For Unit 3: Sea water is being injected to the PCV via FESL(13:12
March 13)
・ For Unit 1 and Unit 3: Injection of Sea water injection into PCV is
interrupted because of the lack of sea water in pit. (01:10 March 14)
・ For Unit 3: Injection of Sea water into PCV is restarted(03:20 March 14)
・ For Unit 3: Unusual pressure increase was identified (11:45 March 14)
・ For Unit 3: Explosion of the Reactor Building broke out similarly with
Unit 1 (11:01 March 14)
○ Fukushima Dai-ni Nuclear Power Station (TEPCO)
(Naraha-machi/Tomioka-machi, Futaba-gun, Fukushima pref.)
(1) The status of operation
Unit1 (1,100MWe): automatic shutdown, cold shut down at 13:40, March 14
Unit2 (1,100MWe): automatic shutdown, cold shut down at 14:20, March 14
Unit3 (1,100MWe): automatic shutdown, cold shut down at 12:15, March 12
Unit4 (1,100MWe): automatic shutdown
(2) Readings at monitoring post etc.
MP1 (Monitoring at the North End of Site Boundary)
0.038microSv/h(5:00 March 14)
→0.034 microSv/h(15:40 March 14)
MP3 (Monitoring at the North/West End of Site boundary)
0.037microSv/h(5:00 March 14)
→0.035 microSv/h(15:40 March 14)
MP4 (Monitoring at the North/West End of Site Boundary)
0.038microSv/h(5:00 March 14)
→0.037microSv/h(15:40 March 14)
MP5 (Monitoring at the West End of Site Boundary)
0.042 microSv/h(5:00 March 14)
→0.042 microSv/h(15:40 March 14)
(3) Direction and velocity of wind (As of 15:40, 14 March)
Direction: West
Velocity: 6 m /s

(5) Report concerning other malfunction
・ None of fire report notified to NISA
・ TEPCO reported to NISA in accordance with Article 10 of the Act on
Special Measures Concerning Nuclear Emergency Preparedness
regarding Fukushima Dai-ni, Units 1. (18:08 March 11)
・ As same as above, TEPCO reported to NISA Fukushima Dai-ni Units 2
and 4.(18:33 March 11)
・ For Unit 1: Due to Recovery of Residual Heat Removal System(RHR),
water in suppression pool is started to cool for cold shut down.(01:24
March 14)
c. Onagawa Nuclear Power Station (Onagawa-cho, Oga-gun and
Ishinomaki–shi, Miyagi Prefecture)
(1) The status of operation
Unit 1 (524MWe): automatic shutdown, cold shut down at 0:58, March 12
Unit 2 (825MWe): automatic shutdown
Unit 3 (825MWe): automatic shutdown, cold shut down at 1:17, March 12
(2) Readings of monitoring post
Reading of monitoring post : Changed
MP2 (Monitoring at the North End of Site Boundary)
Approx. 10,000 nGy/h (as of 13:09 March13)
→7,200 nGy/h (07:20 March 14)
(3) Report concerning other malfunction
・ Fire Smoke on the first basement of the Turbine Building was confirmed
extinguished at 22:55 on March 11th.
・ Article 10* of Act on Special Measures Concerning Nuclear Emergency
Preparedness (Unit No. not identified) (13:09 March 13)
2. Action taken by NISA
(March 11)
14:46 Set up of the NISA Emergency Preparedness Headquarters (Tokyo)
immediately after the earthquake
15:42: TEPCO reported to NISA in accordance with Article 10 of the Act on
Special Measures Concerning Nuclear Emergency Preparedness
regarding Fukushima Dai-ichi.
16:36: TEPCO judged the event in accordance with Article 15 of the Act for
Special Measures Concerning Nuclear Emergency Preparedness
regarding Fukushima Dai-ichi, Units 1 and 2.(notified to NISA at
16:45)
18:08: Unit 1 of Fukushima Dai-ni notified NISA of the situation of the
Article 10 of Act on Special Measures Concerning Nuclear Emergency
Preparedness.

or better yet: http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110315-1.pdf


"Sometimes JCL reminds me of Notch, but more competent" ~ Kiyaku
Re: nuclear meltdown in japan [Re: Michael_Schwarz] #364004
03/15/11 22:25
03/15/11 22:25
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 9,859
F
FBL Offline
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FBL  Offline
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Posts: 9,859
It makes sense to shut down older power plants - even if those in Germany are considered quite safe.
Not because I fear they may blow up the next few hours... it's more that I think if you get rid of old things you leave place for development of something better.

But I agree what we currently see in Germany is mostly an election thingy. CDU fears to lose elections in Baden Württemberg after the Stuttgart21 revolts and the pro nuclear energy statements of the meanwhile pretty unpopular minister president Mappus.


Nuclear energy is often considered clean, as it has next to no CO2 emission... but...
I seriously ask how clean nuclear energy really can be if it produces waste which has to be sealed away and remains toxic for 100000 years and more?
How good is it to rely on a system which can easily pollute an area with 30km radius for over 100000 years?
How far can we trust into this system which scars people whenever they here there is "some problem" with the plant?

What I want to say: Nuclear power plants deliver cheap and good energy, they run mostly stable, but whenever something goes very very very wrong - in a way things usually do not go wrong because it simply is unrealistic - then we should think about what we are doing there. We should recognize that we may have 99.999999% of the time the full control over what is happening with the reactor, but there is an unrealistic of maybe 0.000001% (just numbers, I did not look them up) chance the thing gets out of control. You know, if things go wrong it's not just "ouch, that was expensive", it's a lot more.
And everybody knows Murphy, and Japan will hate him from now on.


Lot of text, short conclusion: If we find good alternatives, we should make use of them - even if they are more expensive.
Currently however, it simply is not possible to get full energy supply without nuclear power plants.

German documentation about Tschernobyl everybody should have seen before arguing about nuclear power. It helped me to find a more stable opinion on this topic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TgczLGbZSA&playnext=1&list=PL575CD8CEA9A63CE8
10 parts, over 90 minutes of video - worth every minute.

Last edited by Firoball; 03/15/11 22:28.
Re: nuclear meltdown in japan [Re: FBL] #364009
03/15/11 22:54
03/15/11 22:54
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 256
USA , NY
msmith2468 Offline
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msmith2468  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 256
USA , NY
well now i feel left out. i cant understand German frown i studied French in school not that i remember any of it but still.

Thinking about it you guys are the only people i talk to that do not live in the US. and thanks to google translate when you type something in German i can get a good idea of what your saying. but google has not managed to translate spoken words yet so i can not watch the video. i do like to see your guys opinions and points of view on world topics and im surprised how similar they are to my own even tho im on the other side of the world. i sure am glad you all know english laugh

Sorry for the rant.


Mikes Wicked Games

www.mikeswickedgames.com
Re: nuclear meltdown in japan [Re: msmith2468] #364013
03/16/11 00:05
03/16/11 00:05
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,506
Germany
F
fogman Offline
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fogman  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,506
Germany
Firo has summed up my oppinion very well.
Back in 1986 I was a six year old boy and chernobyl has shaped my opinion
about security, risks, murphy and common sense.

You can´t really compare chernobyl with japan, but they share the same bad effects.

A risk of 0.000001% is to high when you look at the potential impacts.


no science involved
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