The only solution we were given was to place invisible blocks over "trouble spots" which both me and spike eventually agreed was the only solution. However it was spike's job to do that, and he only did it in a few of the places I listed, so I really don't deserve any more attention in this matter.


It makes no difference to me one way or the other, but once again that's spike's decision.

Funny how everything i say gets blatantly ignored here. oh well, i have better things to do with my time anyway. and even if i wouldnt have, id still quit this nonsense. this thread is over for me.

It is very interesting how the community discuss finish projects. As long as developers are on the same stage as the majority of the com members... everything is okay.
We discuss shit work in the way of "do a little bit that and then don´t forget this". But as soon as one go over this stage, like finish a project / get a deal... there starts a witch hunting. This could be the reason why guys like oliver2s simply delete their showcases or others like fogman just don´t make some of their commercial work public. Don´t bother. I stoped playing grunts after 2 Minutes, because I don´t like the style... but I don´t know why to fuck spike in this crude way. No, please don´t get me wrong, I still have no identification with spiderman-gothic-cementery boys... it is just interesing how we talk with eachother.

Why would he change all what you rant about, blattsalat? I wouldn't listen too much either to someone who shows little respect to ones work. And spike already said he'll consider all advise. Not every programmer can magically appear working code within a day, week or even month. Finishing work within a given time isn't one of your best abilities either, isn't it? You should understand that it doesn't all go that fast and immediate.

He is perfectly able to sell more copies. Sales are 80% about marketing and 20% about looks. Keeping your players playing (and buying a sequel) is a different story, but for the first sales it doesn't matter. And whatever Big Riggs can...

If that is true, it turns the quotes



which are implying that you think very, very lowly of your customers (accusing them of "not having a brain", even) from a regrettable and stupid act done in the heat of the moment to an absolutely baffling statement that speaks so highly of disrespect and outright arrogance that it's sickening.


I agree mostly with Blattsalat. While it's probably true that bad games may damage the "indie"-label (which is pretty nebulous anyhow), I don't think that this has been the case here, as this game doesn't seem to be popular in the sense of it being discussed everywhere.



Alpha_strike, you may be right in that some of these comments speak of bitterness or jealousy. This doesn't change at all that most of the criticism brought up here is fair, and as such, those posts still hold value (much value, even, as criticism is a valuable good).
Is it, however, really unfair to hold free hobby projects to a different standard as commercial products that are sold? At the very least, I'd expect the latter to work*.



* - not saying that grunts does not work - again, I haven't played it.

I dont know how to understand the last part of your statement, but I can tell you, that I play First-Person since the first releases of Doom and know perfectly well how to shoot something ingame. So I will see it as unknowing assumption rather than an try of an insult.

And to the thing above, I NEVER was to meant to harm the reputation of ANYONE here in general. Im not with my nose high to the sky to degrade someones work just for own fun or destructive jealousy.
And I stay at what I have seen (several times).
When an regular enemy (a meleefighter) can take over 60 shots without showing any difference, then yes, this looks like a Bug to me.
And indirectly write, that i am a liar doesnt help much anyway. I would have no gain or any interest to do such things anyway.
I played it approx. 12 times through (for analyzing purposes) so I dont think all the other enemies exploded just by looking at them.
Further is it interesting to mention, that this Bug only occoured in the white level, and never in the dark level and only with the pistol, at least the times, I encountered it.
I would be careful with the expression "Impossible".
You are not Carmack. Even he produces Bugs (and I assume I could guess they are not few).
I developed a game over 2 Years, after finishing it I had 6 months intense testing of the completed project with bughunting\fixing. I thought it was completely bugfree, but after 2 years after a release I encountered a showstopper-bug, that required a very rare combined constellation of states and situations, that I thought I had programmed logic-proof.
Today I would never again call a project of mine bugfree, today I would state they have just hid well.
No one is perfect nor any code is. And even any engine is, nor any pc-configuration or hardwarecombination.
Maybe it was my System or a hardwarecomponent or a driver or Acknex, or maybe Spike changed something.
I dont get, why you directly take that bugsight as an personal attack to your skills and reputation.
I had Acknex-"bugs" that turned out to be my DVD-drive.
Acknex was fine all the time, and worked after replacing the DVD-drive with another one.
Regarding this, I am very disappointed by your reaction.
I never intended anything that you are assuming,
but I have seen, what I have seen.

I am very disappointed about this thread. Honestly, I share much thoughts with Blattsalat, but I am deeply shocked how you treat each other.

Professionality can be judged twofold. On the one hand side you can say someone is a professional, when he earns money for his work. On the other hand side professionality divides expert/competent work from ragged/amateurish work. I think most of you critize Spike for the latter and that he claims actually money for it. Question: what if he would release it as freeware? Would you start such a thread as well?? I don't think so!

I think we collected a lot of arguments why Spike's game(s) are not pleasing everyone and I am sure he will rethink this in the future. If he does not update Grunts or if he doesnt care about this: stop ranting! If there was a message, it has been carried out.

Everyone has his or her own oppinion how a game should feel and how much quality it should serve. And YES, almost all so called indie games disappoint me, too. But, I can tell you: It is a brutal, sleepless and totally un-human amount work to polish a game to fit the mainstream expectations in all certain aspects and degrees of quality. Maybe Spike was a bit tired and thought that the game was alright. Crunchtime is not enjoyable and there are certain times where you simply think: Shit fuck, fuck it!!!111

That is no excuse. No doubt. I have also very high hopes, expectations and my very own vision how a quality game should feel like (everything between Pong and Crysis 3001 super extreme edition for quantum computers). And if anyone tries to excuse himself with that I will haunt you to hell. Seriously. But, even if you try a lot and put lots of effort into it, as to share my experiences, you always get at least one guy who is complaining so much like our Blattsalat did here

The reason why I wrote this post was also another one:

Keep in mind that there are a lot of other users which could be distracted by your talk. They could be hesitated by you to post anything. Because they could fear that they will be bashed to death. Please keep that in mind.

[EDIT] I am still angry, I would like to close it, so please calm down, little HeelX and hope that the others do so as well...

@alpha: I am not criticizing that they made a game, nor am i criticizing that the game is not perfect or has tons of bugs and flaws.
I am criticizing that he SELLs it the way its right now . And frankly i dont care if its EA or icevalk, this aint ok to me. But i am repeating myself here.
The difference between a work in progress and the comments towards it is the fact that its work in progress and not a finished product.
The state this game is now is the one its sold!


@Joozey:
1.) I would never charge you anything before you get what your asked for. Taking more time or less is a matter of the case, but no official statement about bugfixes on the website, not stoping the sales till a working version is up and ready,....
Dont tell me that if you ordered some kind of model, got only the mesh but not the skin and no comment from the modeler and you already paid for it, that this would be "fine" for you. Nor would you accept the refuse of rework from the modeler if something doesnt fit your needs.

2.) Respect: statements like "too dumb customers", "i am too nice to ask my coder to fix stuff" and "we might fix that in the second episode", do not create any respect on my side either.
The comments from me might be harsh but none of this stuff is made up.
I have not started this to make him like me nor to get his respect. This is all about how to treat your customers with respect.

3.) why to change: he does not have to change anything. But this wont help him sell more since all of the people who played the demo wont buy the game anymore. And all the users that bought games like grunts (its just one of many) will begin to avoid indie labeled games because we aint very customer oriented. I dont have to like that, do I?


Its easy to label someting as rant or jelousy or whatever if you dont want to hear whats said.

But on the other hand, the easy path seems to be the path to pick here.
And franky I hope that I am not the only one here that doeant agree with that.

cheers

@miez: Perhaps you are right, and I should not have gotten so angry. Now that I know you're using the pistol, I can clarify for you what's going on: it is sometimes difficult to hit things with the pistol, but that is just the nature of the gun. It performs polygon collision detection to detect hits and the worms, which are rather small, can be difficult to hit sometimes with a slow projectile weapon. So I say again: they are not invincible. You just have to aim a little better. The collision hull on the fist is actually smaller than the fist model to ensure that you do not miss your target by hitting the floor/wall next to it.

It's interesting why do people insist on pushing their opinion to someone's work
I mean, it's sPike's game, sPike and his team working on it, it's up to Spike on what he will do with his game, whether he want to sell his game to anyone else or he want to email it to NASA, it's all his choice You can give him suggestion, of course, but it's up to him to accept it and follow it or not, you can't force him do what you want him to do.

Ok, so his game got lot of bug, so what? I've seen AAA games sold with worse bug. Some of them don't even bother on releasing a fix/patch. Maybe he just didn't notice those bug, maybe he was too excited about his completed game so he missed those bug.


What if I say "Compared to John Carmack, I am no one"