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Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: Redeemer] #378707
07/25/11 20:57
07/25/11 20:57
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,861
Kiel (Germany)
Superku Offline
Senior Expert
Superku  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,861
Kiel (Germany)
Quote:
I was tricked into believing the GS collision code actually worked

The GS collision system works "flawlessly". The fact that USE_BOX (and thus c_move) uses ellipsoids instead of boxes takes a little to get used to (and I often wish we had AABB again), but it does not make anything impossible or exaggeratedly hard to achieve.
Some time ago I've had problems with my movement code and I blamed the OBB sytem, so I wrote a full (2D) AABB movement function. It has worked fine, but it did not really solve any of my issues, so I thought again and finally (it's approx. my 8th gravity code for the same game) came up with a very easy (OBB) solution.

In general, this is not directed at you, Redeemer, I don't get it why people think a good movement code can be achieved with a few lines of code in a few hours/ days.


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Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: Redeemer] #378709
07/25/11 21:09
07/25/11 21:09
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 112
M
miez Offline
Member
miez  Offline
Member
M

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 112
Hmmm... Expressed myself a bit bad.
It was a Bug when it occured, you was able to shot
the enemy infinite without killing it.
I suppose it was a Bug in the way, the Hitpoints were taken.
Probably they were compared to zero rather >= zero, so that
the enemy health became negative values in rare occasions.
Or the trigger for the get-killed sequence was programmed to allow some situations to not be activated when enemyhealth was >= zero... Dont know the code, so dont really matter...
Anyway, in rare situations an (always different) enemy became immortal.

Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: miez] #378713
07/25/11 21:31
07/25/11 21:31
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,370
Caucasus
3run Offline
Senior Expert
3run  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,370
Caucasus
Collusions are working right (even if it's tricky to get it to work stable). The problem is, that ellipsoid thing doesn't really fit most cases! It really looks terrible when player can move in a little bit in hole which is a little bit smaller than his bbox! Yeah, you can put invisible block or model there, so player wont be able to move in it, but what if player should be able to crawl under that hole? He'll be still able to walk in it a little bit! Or an other problem that when player stands near the end of the edge and he starts slowly sliding and hanging near the end of the edge, in the position, which should make player fall down already... But well, jcl doesn't care about that... He thinks that all problems could have a workaround... But not all of them should be fixed... That is really sad, at least for me. I'm pretty sure, that there wont be any of those bugs (problems) in grunts with movement, if there were possibility to choose between box and ellipsoid, not for c_move only, but for c_trace as well... Sorry for huge off-topic...


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Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: sPlKe] #378715
07/25/11 21:43
07/25/11 21:43
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208
Germany
Error014 Offline
Expert
Error014  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208
Germany
Oh, sPIKe. Where to begin?

First, I'm pretty sure that maybe after some time, when you've calmed down, you may regret some of what you wrote, and then wish to edit it all out. I'll quote you in the following, but I'll remove it if you actually decide to edit your previous post. Just let me know (via PM), alright?


As a disclaimer, I haven't played the game. Whoops. In turn, I'll only comment on your post.

~~~

Quote:
truth be told, you get PLENTY of information what to do in the game, hints to where the story will go from here.


You may feel this way, but understand that people may need different amounts of hints. Not only that, but also keep in mind that you're the one who created the game. Obviously, you'll need less information and hints, and things that may seem like totally clear hints to you may end up as cryptic nonsense for anyone else.
If this piece of criticism comes up more than once (and actually even then), this should be a sign for you to think of ways to fix that. Add more hints that only play after a certain while, perhaps?


Quote:
furthermore the game was not developed to be bad.


I really doubt no "real" project was ever intentionally designed to be bad. This should be no excuse, then. I also don't think anyone implied this.

Quote:
the mistkae here is that NONE of you (well, maybe one or two of you) cared to read the wiki. i packed in three links to the wiki for you to read before playing the game, and you didnt care.


But that doesn't make it their fault. The job of a gamedesigner nowadays includes explaining the game. Yeah, that wasn't done in the Atari-days, but who cares? It is done nowadays, so it is expected. And why not? It's good practice, and it helps the player. Expecting them to read a wiki of all things isn't the way to go. Its great if you have one, and its a neat way for people to find out more - but it shouldn't be mandatory.

The same criticism can be applied to some other Indiegames out there (terraria comes to mind), and it's equally as bad there. It is also a common point of criticism for those games.



If it is true that your final version is so much better and has so many bugfixes, then why don't you update your demo? As you've seen here, it is used as an indicator to the quality of the full game. And since you're planning to use it as a demo for all other episodes, too, it is in your best interest to absolutely blow them away with your demo. It must be polished, it must be exciting, and it must be self-explanatory (be honest, how often do you read manuals, wikis or tutorials when playing the demo of a game? I never do that).



Listen, I'm not saying anything about the game here, because, again, I haven't played it. I'm really just observing from the sidelines here. I don't think you've improved your situation with your last post - quite the contrary, it makes you look childish, and, as Blattsalat puts it, pathetic, too.
Do you really feel the need to blame the customer/player in such a way? I mean, you cannot honestly think that accusing your customers (!) to be dumb and without a brain could ever be considered a good idea.


I don't feel like "bashing", and I do hope this post doesn't come across like it, since it is not intended to be. Just, you know, my two cents on this situation as it appears to me right now.
Carry on.


Perhaps this post will get me points for originality at least.

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Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: Error014] #378722
07/25/11 22:21
07/25/11 22:21
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,206
Innsbruck, Austria
sPlKe Offline
Expert
sPlKe  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,206
Innsbruck, Austria
obvisously you all didnt understand what i said. let me quote that for you:

Quote:
i apreciate tis thread. i really do. it shows me where to go as a developer and as a desiger.


Quote:
because of that i havent made it clear enough.


so there it is. i already told you that i havent made it clear enough. is it really so hard to understand me? and to tell you the truth, i am as calm as one can be, in fact there is zero emotion towards this thread for me at the moment.
you all get lost in the bashing, which is fine but none of you ever took the time to actually sit back, let it all sink in and then think about it again.
i do. thats why i have so much time between my posts.

i got e-mails from three customers today. they are forum users and bought the game, read the thread and actually found the time to offer constructive criticsim instead of just bashing out emotions. and while their points are similar to some of the more often read points here, they were presented in a helpful and calm manner.

the point is, i am not oblivious to the issues with the game. that would be silly. i am also not ignoring any of you. that would also be silly. i am however too nice of a person. and yes, that does sound silly, but its true. i am the kind of guy who rather lives with a buggy enemy code than ask his coder who charged me wayyyyyyyy to little for his work to re-write it.
i am the guy who sits down and writes a wiki so that everyone has enough help at understanding the game and the quest only to be yelled at because some people chose not to read it.
i am the guy who sits here, calmly responding to posts full of rage and emotion instead of just ignoring you all like some of you do so well.

so pray tell me dear people, what actually are you mad about? blattsalat is mad at the general indie situation and found an ideal target in me and my game. fine. but the rest of you? where exactly is your problem? because you all hate grunts obviously, some even for reasons that dont apply to the game anyway but nobody made it clear what you want now? do you even want anything? because clearly nobody of you bought the game, so the bugfixing patch that will come eventually doesnt concern you. most people here havent even played the game so where is your problem exactly?
is it that you just like to bash other people? and if so, why? nobody here cares about my game obviously. but you all bash without even knowing why.

excuse me for not taking most of you guys seriously at all...

ps.: error: no it doesnt. dont worry^^ and who said i dont update my demo? i havent updated it YET, true but that doesnt mean that i wont ever...
pps.: redeemer: i listen to you all the time. sometimes i just cant do some things.

Last edited by sPlKe; 07/25/11 22:24.
Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: Error014] #378726
07/25/11 22:54
07/25/11 22:54
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,660
North America
Redeemer Offline
Serious User
Redeemer  Offline
Serious User

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,660
North America
Quote:
In general, this is not directed at you, Redeemer, I don't get it why people think a good movement code can be achieved with a few lines of code in a few hours/ days.

Having now written my own accurate 3D collision systems from scratch in pure C, I understand perfectly how complex they can be. Nonetheless, I am extremely displeased with the way this system works. It is inaccurate and unreliable, and as stated, it is buggy as well. The enemies teleport not because I am moving them through any external method at all, but simply because I have added the GLIDE flag to my c_move call, which somehow causes them to "end up in unexpected places" just as the manual describes.

Quote:

It was a Bug when it occured, you was able to shot
the enemy infinite without killing it.
I suppose it was a Bug in the way, the Hitpoints were taken.
Probably they were compared to zero rather >= zero, so that
the enemy health became negative values in rare occasions.
Or the trigger for the get-killed sequence was programmed to allow some situations to not be activated when enemyhealth was >= zero... Dont know the code, so dont really matter...
Anyway, in rare situations an (always different) enemy became immortal.

That is utterly impossible, and I will go so far as to say it is your imagination. I am aware of such simple yet fatal logical mistakes and made sure to implement safe logic in these potentially volatile situations. I have thoroughly tested and debugged my logic and your statement is both unfounded and untrue, as well as damaging to my reputation as a programmer.

... you do realize of course that the enemy begins flashing as it gets more damaged? You have to keep shooting it for it to die, you know.


Eats commas for breakfast.

Play Barony: Cursed Edition!
Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: sPlKe] #378733
07/25/11 23:18
07/25/11 23:18
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
Blattsalat Offline
Senior Expert
Blattsalat  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
I am not mad at you. I just think that developers (indies especially because thats who we are) that release bug infested games, call their audicence "too stuptid to understand their game" and have the guts to ignore massive gameplay and gamemachanics flaws (basicly selling a none working game) should get kicked in their balls.
Just my personal opinion as a customer and as a daveloper.
I do not care if you are MassEffect3 or Grunts. This is not acceptable.

Redeemer I dont understand you. Why didnt you call for help in the community when facing such troubles. There are workaround for every single issue in the game. Some of them being easy and fast to implement.
The pitty of it all is that none of this was necessary in the first place.

And to address this childish "you havent bought the game so you cant judge it" crap:
You state yourself on your webpage that episode one includes pretty much most of the game.
I have played the demo for several hours again and again.
So you can clearly explain to me how "buying it" would raise my judgment qualifications here.

Furthermore is charging money for a unknown beta test basicly a fraud.
Its like telling your customer after the accident that the brakes for the car he bought from you might be added later on.


And to be bring it down to one simple formula:
You wouldnt buy your own game because of the same reasons I wouldnt.

.... Do you now get a slight idea why i dont like how the project has turned out..


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Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: Blattsalat] #378736
07/25/11 23:26
07/25/11 23:26
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,771
Bay City, MI
lostclimate Offline
Expert
lostclimate  Offline
Expert

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,771
Bay City, MI
im gonna stick up for redeemer on that last comment blatt. he did call on the community. Im not fully aware of the issue because i havent done much 3d work with acknex in a bit (programming wise) so i havent really got much use out of the new collision yet, but i have seen him post and go through long threads about this very issue.

Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: lostclimate] #378738
07/25/11 23:35
07/25/11 23:35
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,660
North America
Redeemer Offline
Serious User
Redeemer  Offline
Serious User

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,660
North America
Thanks, LC. laugh


Eats commas for breakfast.

Play Barony: Cursed Edition!
Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: Redeemer] #378740
07/26/11 00:11
07/26/11 00:11
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
Blattsalat Offline
Senior Expert
Blattsalat  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
And you still did not find a sollution? (hard to believe for me to be honest)
Did anyobdy thought of fixing (or at least minimizing) this with level design?
Did you reconcider the gameplay since you couldnt find a workaround?
Did you concider a free release since you could not achieve what was necessary?

Dont get me wrong Redeemer. I am not blaming you or any other person. Neither do i blame spike for the entire game.

I find it just unacceptable that you SELL this game. A game you admit (nothing wrong with that) is not that good and has quite a few issues.
I blame the "press" and "review" that dont point at the flaws of the game. And i dislike the community that basicly ignores all of this and acts like everything is alright and fine. I do not like how spike deals with critique, I do not like him blaming your customers for his faults, and i dont like how he tries to find cheap excuses and strange logical constructs for a mistake he made.

And what i hate most is the fact that still nothing has changed. After all of the rants, critique, talking aso there is absolutely nothing.

If this stays as it does, I do hope two things:
a.) You, Redeemer and all the others involved will find "better" projects and producers in the future.
b.) Not one more copy of this game gets sold. This behaviour should require learning and reflection first, before it grants income. (I know this hurts the wrong people too, but I am afraid there is no other way)

cheers and have a nice day




Models, Textures and Levels at:
http://www.blattsalat.com/
portfolio:
http://showcase.blattsalat.com/
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