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Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: Blattsalat] #378600
07/25/11 01:02
07/25/11 01:02
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,660
North America
Redeemer Offline
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Redeemer  Offline
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Hmm. You have some good arguments.

Have to say I was inititally confused when you called the game "grunz," though.

Honestly I am also constantly annoyed by the collision detection... I was quite vocal about that here on the forums. Unfortunately AABB doesn't work in A7 and up, JCL didn't want to put it back in, and I didn't have the time to do it myself. I've recently gained a lot of knowledge in that regard and could probably do it now, but unfortunately the game is already out.

Ah well. Better luck next time.

... Now that I think of it, a lot of major annoyances with the collision detection could have actually been resolved with more invisible blocks and better level design... spike, I blame you. wink

Also the game might not play well, but it still looks good. At least, it looks good on a portfolio. Lots of people I don't even know have complimented me for being involved in a game that looks as good as grunts, although they've never played the game themselves.


Eats commas for breakfast.

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Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: Redeemer] #378603
07/25/11 01:25
07/25/11 01:25
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,370
Caucasus
3run Offline
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3run  Offline
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Posts: 5,370
Caucasus
I've played demo yesterday, after I saw how Blattsalat was criticizing it (BTW that was a good advertisement ^^ which even made me download the demo, and may be not only me). Yeah, movement is sucks, player stucks nearly everywhere... In some places (for example doorways) which should be passable as I think, player can jump and hang on them, and after that, he falls as if he falled from the height... The ellipsoid problem is also annoying (yes Redeemer, I hate GS collusions as well, but who cares?)... Most of the problem (if even not all of them) could be really fixed by invisible models (at least thats what I do to workaround terrible GS collusios). The style (I never liked it to be trully speaking) gave me only headache, but I liked some of the jokes at the begging of the game. Combat... Well I didn't really see anything that could be called combat, shooting those viruses isn't really a combat... That was boring. sPIke I think you should listen all things which are mentioned in this thread in to account when you'll be realising the next part! Not getting offended, not getting rude, but really listen and fix those problems. I do really not want to offend you, just wanted to give my two cents. And criticizm is really useful thing, please don't think that this thread is about bashing you game (or games), alpha_strike should really change the name of the thread...


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Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: 3run] #378604
07/25/11 01:28
07/25/11 01:28
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,660
North America
Redeemer Offline
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Redeemer  Offline
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In all of this, I'm reminded how the greater part of us truly suck at making games. And in spike's own words:

Click to reveal..
Guys, you read this and you think: Okay, so he has no idea what he is talking about. And from a certain point of view, namely Retro Studios or Konami, you might very well be right. But that my dear friends is not the point. The point is, we are all unprofessional indie developers. All of us. If you read this and consider yourself to be a pro, give your license back. Because frankly, you are not. That may sound harsh, but as long as you are not working on a multi million dollar project for a big budget market, you are not a pro. And that is okay.

I suppose since you are reading this, you are either a beginner or like me, a small indie. And tell you what. *WE* are the good guys. You see, a good game is not created in one day. And a good idea is also not done in a day. If you are really doing this, if you really want to go through with this, then be prepared: you have A LOT of work ahead of you, and you will fail. You will fail time and time again. Your first ten games WILL suck.

So what can you do about it? Well, keep on going. Create sucky games. Heck, for the sake of it, go now, open up SED, MED and WED/GED and create a sucky game. Create a game with four to six rooms connected to each other. Create a horrible player code. GO ahead and make a model or two and then place those models in your ugly room and play. Play the game you will work on for weeks. And then realize how much it sucks and throw it into a folder named "Projects that suck". And then start again. Do the very same game again. Do not change it. Just create the same game again. And again and again. And if you can do this game in one day and still make it better than your first few tries, you are on the right track.

I remember my first game. It was so horrible. And then I had this idea of a Castlevania game. And I was lucky enough to meet a great man who actually knew what he was doing. He basically created my game. And you know what? He is a pro now. And I am very proud to have ever met him. So my point being, like I have stated above: if you cannot make a full fledged game with the tools you have been given, you cannot make any game. Because a game is not graphics or shaders or music or gameplay, all those are things a game needs. But a game is an idea. And if you have an idea, no matter how stupid it may be, just go with it. Don't tell anyone. Take your idea, take a piece of paper and write it down. Draw it out. And then take your paper and create your game. It does not matter if it is ugly. It does not matter if it is sounding any good. All that matters is that you have taken your idea and made your game.

If you do that, if you really stick around with it, you will eventually learn to use your tools. You will know the do's and dont's of creating a game and then you will make a good game. And then, please drop me a line and tell me how you made your game good because I sure as hell have no idea how to do that tongue

Thanks for your time. Never give up! Viel Glück!


EDIT: Seriously... the more I think about this rant the more I can't help laughing. Maybe I'm going insane but this is just like a rant from the angry video game nerd.

Last edited by Redeemer; 07/25/11 01:36.

Eats commas for breakfast.

Play Barony: Cursed Edition!
Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: Redeemer] #378606
07/25/11 01:40
07/25/11 01:40
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
Blattsalat Offline
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Blattsalat  Offline
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My bad, i thought it was called grunz not grunts.

The visuals are ok and i do like the black and white retro idea, but unfortunately its not about art portfolio work here.

I would like to see the designers on this board evolve.
And I think this needs to start with a good slap into the face.

cheese


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portfolio:
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Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: Blattsalat] #378609
07/25/11 01:51
07/25/11 01:51
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,660
North America
Redeemer Offline
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Redeemer  Offline
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In all honesty I really do think you're blowing this way out of proportion though. We didn't make a very good game. We know that. But we made a game, and that's an accomplishment, a growth. And although the game's price:quality ratio may have a .000000003% impact on the indie game market, we seriously doubt we will hurt anyone, least of all you.

This is a fine rant, but that's all it is, a rant. Now that I've pondered it somewhat, I think I'm done reading this.

Thanks for the honest feedback; I bear no hard feelings against you.

Last edited by Redeemer; 07/25/11 01:52.

Eats commas for breakfast.

Play Barony: Cursed Edition!
Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: Redeemer] #378612
07/25/11 02:02
07/25/11 02:02
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,771
Bay City, MI
lostclimate Offline
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lostclimate  Offline
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Posts: 4,771
Bay City, MI
wow, a whole thread bashing it? i didnt actually play it, but i watched some video clips and it looked sort of fun. was it really that bad? I like the style.

Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: lostclimate] #378613
07/25/11 02:15
07/25/11 02:15
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,660
North America
Redeemer Offline
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Redeemer  Offline
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Posts: 1,660
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I think the hype made a bashing thread inevitable. I wasn't here when Ambages was released, so I don't know how much it was hyped and how much feedback it got...

GRUNTS, gameplay-wise, isn't any better than one of the less polished games you might find in the projects forum. The differences, speaking relative to those projects:

1. It looks much nicer.
2. It's complete.
3. It's polished.


Eats commas for breakfast.

Play Barony: Cursed Edition!
Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: Redeemer] #378614
07/25/11 02:49
07/25/11 02:49
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
Blattsalat Offline
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Blattsalat  Offline
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Posts: 5,181
Austria
I think without the bashing thread the game would be dead already.
So I am awaiting my shares in liquor and little puppies wink

Again, that you realease and charge money for a project you think aint good, is not the reason for my complaints at all. I wouldnt do it, but its not my game.
I wont repeat myself since everything i wanted to say is written above but i would like to comment your statements.
You might be right that this game might have only a small impact on all other indie games. But grunts and all other grunts that get flipped out combine. And these tiny impacts combine and grow and grow and grow, till all indie effort is less worth then a pool filled with dog pooh because nobody will even try these games anymore.
You are sure not the cause of the problem. But you are part of it - as unfortunately am i and all of us here.
And as the .00000003% kick ass receiver that I will be thanks to you, I just wanted to state my rant and reasonable disllike to how you see indie game development:


You released a game that you find not that good yourself and call it an achievement.
And to top that you dont give the project away for free but you charge money for it - for the thing you dont think is made very well.
Can you see why this is questionable to me?

And to top all of that, spike opens a thread with the title "do you think the cheap price of my game is the reason it sells very bad".
And you get angry when someone tells you "no".

As I said, its time to get rid of the 8year old boy excuse.


I want to make this very clear. Although stated from spike (i didnt knew who else was involved till now) that this is some personal issue, it is absolutely not!
I roam this forum for a few days now and I have noticed a general degeneration of ambition or should i say drive, passion or force that should be the heart and spirit of good game design.
And the saddest part (the one why i ranted initially), was the community swallowing this latest release with nothing but "congrats" and "looks nice"..."end of input".

This attitude is poison. It spreads from games like grunts to the community and then back to the developers who then create another grunts.
This community is slowly but surly lowering its standards and this will have a huge impact on our part of the indie trip (in a lot of different ways).

I didnt just complained or ranted about the game alone (thats why making such a thread title is bs and bad), but i included all of us and the way we treat game making lately.


As far as i can tell "just creating a game" aint good enough for me anymore.
And i hope the one or other might share this oppinion as well.


cheers and a nice one



Models, Textures and Levels at:
http://www.blattsalat.com/
portfolio:
http://showcase.blattsalat.com/
Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: Blattsalat] #378615
07/25/11 03:35
07/25/11 03:35
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,660
North America
Redeemer Offline
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Redeemer  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,660
North America
Quote:
And to top all of that, spike opens a thread with the title "do you think the cheap price of my game is the reason it sells very bad".
And you get angry when someone tells you "no".

I don't think anybody's angry but you. :\

Quote:
You released a game that you find not that good yourself and call it an achievement.

You said you wanted us to evolve. To evolve we can only make more games, and that's just what we did.

Quote:
I roam this forum for a few days now and I have noticed a general degeneration of ambition or should i say drive, passion or force that should be the heart and spirit of good game design.

KarBOOM, Silas, and CSiS are all quality games that are setting a good standard for this community. It's not accurate to say that the community lacks ambition.

Quote:
As far as i can tell "just creating a game" aint good enough for me anymore.
And i hope the one or other might share this oppinion as well.

I hope you can lighten up a bit and see the bright side of this, because there is a big one.


Eats commas for breakfast.

Play Barony: Cursed Edition!
Re: Lets bash: G.R.U.N.T.S! [Re: Redeemer] #378616
07/25/11 03:54
07/25/11 03:54
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
Blattsalat Offline
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Blattsalat  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
not angry but concerned and dissapointed. thats a difference.
and no. to evolve you have to question yourself and the games you create. just creating them aint by far enough.

and yes, there are a few nice games around. but this doesnt change my concern about how the community deals with the projects and the whole direction the development is heading here.

and thanks. I really appreciate your wishes.


cheers


Last edited by Blattsalat; 07/25/11 04:03.

Models, Textures and Levels at:
http://www.blattsalat.com/
portfolio:
http://showcase.blattsalat.com/
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