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Re: Mac and Linux (no, really!)
[Re: JibbSmart]
#398588
04/04/12 13:18
04/04/12 13:18
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,861 Kiel (Germany)
Superku
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,861
Kiel (Germany)
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Besides, I hate consoles . It does seem strangely like you think we were asking for console support, which is not the case at all. PadMalcolm went offtopic with that suggestion and Rondidon, Error014, Rei Ayanami, sP|Ke and I all argued against it (Rei even expressed concern that PadMalcolm's suggestion would lead you to misunderstand our request). We're just looking to have our PC games work on non-Windows PCs. Indeed! At the risk of boring you, jcl, could you please confirm that you've understood our concern and you've re-read the (updated) first post? Thanks!
"Falls das Resultat nicht einfach nur dermassen gut aussieht, sollten Sie nochmal von vorn anfangen..." - Manual Check out my new game: Pogostuck: Rage With Your Friends
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Re: Mac and Linux (no, really!)
[Re: jcl]
#399023
04/10/12 11:48
04/10/12 11:48
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,861 Kiel (Germany)
Superku
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,861
Kiel (Germany)
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Good. A Gamestudio standard version for Mac, Linux [...] was not planned, is not planned, and most likely won't be ever planned, for the simple reason that we see no sufficient market and demand for such a version. As you've read the first post, there is a relatively high demand for a game engine that at least runs on those systems, even if you keep the editors Windows-based. In the foreseeable future there will be a game development suit that features "complete" PC support, because the rivals never rest. This is my last post in this thread, I will stop bothering you for now, but please think about this concern again when you're done with the Android port.
"Falls das Resultat nicht einfach nur dermassen gut aussieht, sollten Sie nochmal von vorn anfangen..." - Manual Check out my new game: Pogostuck: Rage With Your Friends
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Re: Mac and Linux (no, really!)
[Re: Superku]
#399164
04/11/12 17:56
04/11/12 17:56
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538 WA, Australia
JibbSmart
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OP
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
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I was wondering about this as well. I want my games to run on Mac and Linux, but I don't care about the editors. Any cross-platform developer will have a Windows PC anyway. We'd need Mac and Linux compilers, but that's it. I'm sure jcl is getting quite bothered by this thread being bumped over and over, but... well, I was thinking about what it'd take to have Lite-C and GS work on other platforms... A renderer rewrite, for sure. But they're already porting to Android, so they know how to deal with an OpenGL renderer. SDL 1.2 is a stable, fast, free, low-level (within reason) layer for compiling the same code on Windows, Mac and Linux. It gives access to OpenGL, sockets, multithreading, sound, gamepads, keyboard and mouse input, all without dealing with OS-specific details. Super Meat Boy, Dwarf Fortress, Lugaru, Overgrowth, Penumbra: Overture, World of Goo, Doom 3, FreeSpace 2, Quake 4, Unreal Tournament (and 2003 and 2004), Sim City 3000, Amnesia: The Dark Descent, and many other games use SDL (some of them just for the Linux or Mac version). The compiler makes things a bit more complicated, of course. But it could also make things simpler: Lite-C is effectively C/C++ minus some really nice features users have been requesting for a while, plus wait(1) and some automatic pointer-stuff with parameters for functions. We could get the best of both worlds if Lite-C just used GCC (thus supporting all the nice C++ features if we want them) with a pre-compile stage that dealt with pointers in parameters and inserted some stack-walking function calls to provide wait(1) functionality (this is probably where I sound extremely naive ). It'd also have to rename our main function so that your main rendering/stack-building loop was being used instead of ours, of course. Shaders, as we've mentioned before, could be compiled with Cg, which is pretty much identical to HLSL. The last hurdle is the editors, and this is probably the biggest one since they probably rely a lot on the Windows API for all their menu shizzle. At a guess, this could be the reason we're getting GS Android and not GS Linux -- no one expects the editors to actually run on Android. But, as Superku mentioned, we just want our games to run on other platforms, not the editors. A Linux compiler and a Mac compiler would be all we need. We're not arguing for game dev on Mac and Linux. We're arguing for gaming on Mac and Linux. Dejobaan didn't leave to make games on Mac, they left to make games that run on Mac (to grossly simplify things). In short, given the editors don't need to be cross-platform, and an OpenGL renderer of sorts is already in the works for Android, I believe the compiler is probably the only real obstacle between Windows-only GS and "PC gaming" GS.
Formerly known as JulzMighty. I made KarBOOM!
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Re: Mac and Linux (no, really!)
[Re: JibbSmart]
#399167
04/11/12 18:26
04/11/12 18:26
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,183 Germany, BaW�
Rondidon
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,183
Germany, BaW�
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I think that the non-suitability for Linux and Mac applications is the biggest impediment for Gamestudio (along with the editors). Fact is: Even small publishers with the focus on adventure, casual and low-budget simulator games expect full PC support (PC+Mac and sometimes Linux) from their developers nowdays. They particulary demand it because it increases the target group. There`s a reason why many Gamestudio developers are seriously thinking about moving to other game engines. It`s not the engine itself and it`s not Lite-C, but in most cases the bottleneck with the platforms. no one expects the editors to actually run on Android I`ve got some feeling that they`re working on exactly that. Click-your-game-together and develop small Android apps on your Android tablet PC and smartphone. Could be a market niche .
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Re: Mac and Linux (no, really!)
[Re: Damocles]
#399176
04/11/12 19:25
04/11/12 19:25
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,751 Canada
WretchedSid
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Expert
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,751
Canada
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FWIW, the Mac AppStore is full with games "ported" via Wine bottles. For example The Witcher, which runs astonishingly good on my MacBook Pro (granted, its the latest one =/). So yeah, you can have Mac Support if you want.
Shitlord by trade and passion. Graphics programmer at Laminar Research. I write blog posts at feresignum.com
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Re: Mac and Linux (no, really!)
[Re: WretchedSid]
#399178
04/11/12 19:46
04/11/12 19:46
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538 WA, Australia
JibbSmart
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For Mac development you need a Mac to test the game on. (If you think that you dont need a testmachine, then you are not taking the development seriously anyhow) That limits the userbase quite a lot (a big argument for not investing into it) I'm well aware of this, and I kinda assumed everyone was. GS markets itself to beginners and professionals. Professionals will buy a Mac without blinking if they need it to test their game properly. I know I will -- there's been enough demand for KarBOOM from Mac users to justify the expense. Also, indies often get friends or random people on the internet to help test their games, so even a beginner who refuses to buy a Mac would have no trouble getting their game tested if the Mac compiler ran on Windows. I had assumed that a Mac would be necessary for compilation. If that is the case, I think very few people are without access to a Mac (a friend or family member, for example). If it's not the case then even better!
Formerly known as JulzMighty. I made KarBOOM!
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Re: Mac and Linux (no, really!)
[Re: Gordon]
#400526
05/02/12 19:46
05/02/12 19:46
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538 WA, Australia
JibbSmart
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OP
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,538
WA, Australia
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It'd only break your code if you're using DirectX functions AND GS stops using DirectX for Windows versions. Yes, Windows.h wouldn't work on other platforms either, but there's no reason those using WinAPI functions can't stick to Windows-only if they want.
Have another read through the thread, look at the pictures, and make sure you understand the first post. That should address any concerns you have about knowing our audience, how relevant XBox and iPhone are to the discussion, and whether any of us are exploring other options.
Formerly known as JulzMighty. I made KarBOOM!
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