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Re: for doubters of God's existance
[Re: Neonotso]
#66576
03/31/06 01:32
03/31/06 01:32
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
Blattsalat
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
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proving evolution is simple: evolution is nothing more then random reproduction in masses and sorting of the result. It has nothing to to with apes giving birth to humans. simple example: white pairs get white babys, black ones black. Put hundred white and hundred black pairs into a hot climate zone (desert). Let them make babies (huh, sounds like a new verhooven movie  ). If the impact of the sunrays is high enough and there is no other difference between black and white people as a logical consequence the white ones will have a much harder life and die sooner and get harmed by the conditions. On the long run this means a lot less white people and a bigger percentage black ones. In any extreme condition one group can die out. evolution has done its job its is not more and less then a huge beta test run with a little harder consequences. species are generated randomly and they disappear as well "the fitest will survive". evolution is neither contra any religion (because it doesnt determine who creates the beings) nor is it a good example to prove any side. also the difference between animals and humans aint that big: the answer to the question if a ape can build a car is no. but neither of us could do it as well. humans benefit from the bigest gift ever: information exchange thru generations. The word is the ultimate key for development. If apes could write books, the could also on the long run build cars, make clothes and write posts into conitec forums. Though once in a while i have the feeling some allready do  cheers
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Re: for doubters of God's existance
[Re: Neonotso]
#66577
03/31/06 01:41
03/31/06 01:41
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
User
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User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
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Grimber, is your scientific defense of 'science's' lies to attack christianity? I find that peculiar. Kind of a strange way to prove your theory. Your behavior is consistent with something like a faith vs. faith type debate, not science vs. faith. I've been trying to keep this scientific the whole time, and strangely enough the ones on the side of science have been having a hard time keeping focused on science itself. I don't think I can stomach writing out another long post, but I'll respond to everything you've had to say at some point. Luckily, since most of it is just opinion it shouldn't take too long. I'll just have to avoid getting into the whole, "Oh yeah, well your side did these horrible things" kind of argument. Quote:
evolution is nothing more then random reproduction in masses and sorting of the result. It has nothing to to with apes giving birth to humans.
I recommend you do some research into genetics before saying that.
No one has a problem with random changes within animals. That's observable, and its called micro evolution. However, creatures slowly sprouting wings is unprovable, and that's where the problem comes in. We see a lizard without wings, a lizard with wings, and then birds and we say that's evolution. All we've managed to discover are three kinds of distinct species. No record of change.
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white pairs get white babys, black ones black.
Put hundred white and hundred black pairs into a hot climate zone (desert). Let them make babies (huh, sounds like a new verhooven movie ).
If the impact of the sunrays is high enough and there is no other difference between black and white people as a logical consequence the white ones will have a much harder life and die sooner and get harmed by the conditions.
On the long run this means a lot less white people and a bigger percentage black ones.
In any extreme condition one group can die out.
This is why people believe evolution. They don't even know what it is.
You've pointed out what's called natural selection. In fact, on the genetic level you've argued against evolution. You start out with the genetics for white skin and the genetics for black skin, and at the end of your experiment you'll (according to you) end up with only black skin. That's called a loss of genetic data. We still have humans, there's no change to something radically different, except those humans just lost the genetic ability to have white skin. How is that evolution?
This is what I mean when I say public school science textbooks destroy critical thinking. I wasn't told how to figure that stuff out, I just know enough common sense to figure out that that's not evolution.
Believe me, though, if it was that easy to observe evolution, then there would be no point for a debate.
I'll be back soon, but until then...
Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 03/31/06 01:49.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: for doubters of God's existance
[Re: Blattsalat]
#66578
03/31/06 01:44
03/31/06 01:44
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 51
Neonotso
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 51
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Just in case you guys missed it, I edited my last post. It has one more paragraph on it.  EDIT: Quote:
40% of americans do not have a correct understanding of evolution ( this thread shows allot of evidance of that)
nearly 50% of americans do not have a clear understanding of creationisum ( again this thread shows allot of even so called believers know so little of thier own 'belief')
I'll agree that with those poll results. Even if you're a supposed "Christian", it is likely you're not what I've been reffering to as a "true Christian". Why do think I mentioned "the few". There's a very small amount of people who are Christians, to my knowledge, and even fewer who actually have a correct understanding of what a Christian should be and probably even smaller who actually are what a Christian is supposed to be... I think, overall, the world hates Christians.  But, oh well, whatcha gonna do... after all, the world is corrupt.
- I just reffered to two different "world"s at the end of my post. The first one is the people, and the second one is more of the system governing the world... I don't want to have people yelling at me or something saying, "Oh, so now you think that all the people in the world are corrupt?!".
Last edited by Neonotso; 03/31/06 02:05.
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Re: for doubters of God's existance
[Re: Neonotso]
#66579
03/31/06 02:23
03/31/06 02:23
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
Blattsalat
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
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@Irish_Farmer: genetics are not evolution! genetics is required for reprodution and the morphing reults of it (white pairs get white babies). But the evolution itself is just sorting them out. about the lizards that can fly: do you have a dog? how do you think this dog or species was created or where does it come from?! If evolution and reproduction morghing was just a theory none of us whould have dogs, cats, cattle or sheep. If this can be made thru human hand what makes you think this wouldnt happen by itslef on the long run....lets say a billion years. and most important: -->except those humans just lost the genetic ability to have white skin. How is that evolution? as you can "lose" those genetic abilities you gain others. and this can end in being able to grow feathers or wings (though you dont influence it). Like skin shade any genetic data can be dominant and lead to mutations. If that mutations pay off the logical consequence is that this genetic pool will spread. Hence reproducing more of this genetic pool this again increases the chances of new mutations. and so forth from the skin shade this can lead to anything and this is exactly how evolution and genetics work...though lots tend to mix them up into one "theory" and it doesnt matter if you believe in god or not cheers
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Re: for doubters of God's existance
[Re: Blattsalat]
#66580
03/31/06 03:25
03/31/06 03:25
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
User
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User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
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Quote:
genetics are not evolution!
*sigh* I never said that.
However, evolution is all about genetics. Evolution supposedly causes extreme manipulations of the genetic material of every living thing on earth. You need to research genetics before pretending you know anything about evolution. I'm not an expert on genetics, but I don't need to be to understand why you're wrong. It simply takes logic.
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But the evolution itself is just sorting them out.
Again. Get your facts right. What you're speaking of is natural selection. VERY different from evolution. Natural selection is the process by which the weakest creatures (creatures with the worst genetic data) get weeded out. Its actually a problem for evolution because natural selection works a lot faster than evolution and proves that if anything the genetic structure of living things on earth is slowly breaking down. Not slowly building up.
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do you have a dog? how do you think this dog or species was created or where does it come from?!
If evolution and reproduction morghing was just a theory none of us whould have dogs, cats, cattle or sheep.
Simply put, dogs are just another version of the wolf. We genetically forged the wolf until we had a plethora of kinds of dogs.
If you're saying us having many different kinds of dogs proves evolution, then you need to get your facts straight...again. All we've done is genetically weaken the wolf to get broken down versions of it. Can you imagine if we actually unleashed these animals into the wild?
Furthermore, this just proves my point. No matter how much we force these changes within a species, we still can't force those dogs to become birds. That's what we're discussing here. You have a lot of catching up to do.
Maybe instead of saying evolution is the only possible answer, you should consider the possibility that we were all created. You're getting dangerously close to the argument, "Evolution has to be true because there's no other answer." We all know why that's a logical fallacy, even if we believe in evolution. There has to be proof. So far, you have provided none.
All you keep illustrating is a loss of genetic data. That's the EXACT OPPOSITE of evolution. Take this statement for instance:
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as you can "lose" those genetic abilities you gain others. and this can end in being able to grow feathers or wings (though you dont influence it).
Back up your statement. Throw some of these black and white people into a desert and wait until they sprout wings. Don't tell me that you know it can happen, because that means nothing without proof.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: for doubters of God's existance
[Re: Grimber]
#66581
03/31/06 03:31
03/31/06 03:31
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,682
Coppell, Texas
Ran Man
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,682
Coppell, Texas
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Quote:
hm... you know that it takes much much longer than 6000 years until oil forms?
Yeah, it takes about 30 minutes or less to make oil at the link below.
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If a 175-pound man fell into one end , he would come out the other end as 38 pounds of oil, 7 pounds of gas, and 7 pounds of minerals, as well as 123 pounds of sterilized water
http://www.mindfully.org/Energy/2003/Anything-Into-Oil1may03.htm
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at least apes live in harmoney with its enviroment and socialy between its own race
No, there are plenty of "ape fights" amongst them.
Only because they are so dumb, they don't try to rise up and conquer the earth. Although, hollywood did do that in the "PLANET OF THE APES" movie, huh?
Aggh, now that's a nice ape, huh? lol
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Re: for doubters of God's existance
[Re: Ran Man]
#66582
03/31/06 03:44
03/31/06 03:44
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 535
Michigan
ICEman
Developer
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Developer
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 535
Michigan
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So now this turns from one futile debate to another.. ::sigh:: Dominoes anyone?
I'm ICEman, and I approved this message.
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Re: for doubters of God's existance
[Re: Grimber]
#66583
03/31/06 04:40
03/31/06 04:40
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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"is this 6000 years old earth calculation use the same methods that over the past two thousand years the ever changing predictions of when the 2nd comming of christ is predicted to happen? I do believe that theologic scholars seem to keep missing the mark on the year it suppost to happen. with allot of followers having to suffer because they happend to give away all their earthly possesions time and again just prior to these dates then have to find a way to live afterwards" Who cares? What does this solve in the debate? Some people do terrible things and waste their time disobeying what the Bible says. That's just the way things go. That's not making an excuse for the guy, but there's nothing that can be done about it. Those people will have to answer for their own actions. Quote:
yes, i know thologists figure this number of years by supposedly counting the generations backwards though the bible. So does this include the 73 books of the roman chatholic books of teh bible. or the 66 books of the king james version or the origial 81 books of teh King James bible before the arch bishop of cantabury removed 16 ?
Where is this information coming from?
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does it take into account other books from various denomitaions?
There are usually pretty simple stories behind those other books. For instance, someone thinking they found a special add on to the bible. Its pretty easy to understand why many of these books are fake. But I can't say too much. I'm somewhat ignorant to the origins and changes to the bible caused by all these different sects.
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does it include the parts of the hebrew texts (Koran)
Hebrew and Arab texts at the same time? How is that possible? The Koran isn't part of the Bible even to the Jews. The Koran is the arab book.
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ee, creationists have a serious tendancy to PICK and choose and just so SIMPLY ignore or toss aside anything they just don't like. Because it doesn;t fit your pre concieved ideals.
That's strange, because it seems exactly opposite to me. The evolutionists are the ones spreading lies by picking and choosing which 'proof' to focus on. If you're mad because some guy added or took away from the bible, how does that change the truth that materialism is wrong and we were created in our present forms?
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You know its amazing how many of the 7 deadly sins chreationists constantly break. considering thier entire goal is to find their own self richousness ( yet again a sin of your own religion)
I'm not going to speak for anyone else at the forum, but for me its all for the glory of God (gasp). It could be argued that, since you're simply debating for the sake of debating, you're the one doing it for selfish reasons. I'm not saying you are, but I don't have the motive here.
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nope, creationists believe in things they are told.
Man, this is frustrating. I'm not even going to point out why you're wrong because all you're trying to do is belittle people like me, and that's despicable. Keep your hate-filled opinions to yourself, especially when they have no bearing on the discussion. You're simply going out of your way to attack people.
Quote:
40% of americans do not have a correct understanding of evolution ( this thread shows allot of evidance of that)
nearly 50% of americans do not have a clear understanding of creationisum ( again this thread shows allot of even so called believers know so little of thier own 'belief')
40% of american scientists believe in god
5% of american scientists believe in creationisum
(scientists polled consisted of mainstream sciences like biology and geology, and non mainstream sciences like health science, computer science engineering etc)
Quit falling back on the 'bandwagon fallacy'. Who cares about other people. It doesn't change the truth. Large groups of people do a lot of crazy things (or believe a lot of crazy things), but that's not my problem. And its not yours either. I don't run my life based on other people's choices. And I'm certainly not going to have my faith questioned by a poll.
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whens the last time you seen apes wage war, imprison, torture and murder millions of thier own speices because one group thinks 'thier god is better then other groups god, and if you don't follow ours your less than human'
It sounds to me like you have a problem with people, not God. I'm sorry to hear that, but I can understand where you're coming from. We live in a pretty terrible world, and evil comes in a lot of forms (even dressed in sheeps clothing). But again, you're avoiding the subject at hand. Its pointless to get stuck on the past. Since most murdering is done by non-christians, why shouldn't I conclude that by ratio alone, non-christians are much worse. Because that's ridiculous. Only racists cast aside the individual to stereotype the whole. I'm not saying you're racist, but its just as illogical to completely assume you understand me as a christian or any christian for that matter because some lunatics decided to kill some people in the name of God. How about instead of focusing on the past, we learn from it and stop stereotyping people. Its never led to anything good.
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Re: for doubters of God's existance
#66584
03/31/06 04:43
03/31/06 04:43
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
User
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User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
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Okay. That last post by anonymous was me. However, the top post in page 14 of the thread wasn't me. I don't know who that was.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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