"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. - Hebrews 4:12

Any questions?"

If you want to be credible in this argument please stay away from quoting the bible. Yes its profound and inspiring, and shows the power of God, but evolutionists wont take you seriously if you start saying these verses. It has nothing for them to chew on/think about. Creationists live by faith in things unseen, and evolutionists live by the things which ARE seen.

There is nothing scientific in the bible, which makes it an unscientific resource. God wouldn't fill his book with records of the details of which exact rib he took from Adam, or the speed of the winds which split the red sea. The Bible does not care about the details, which evolutionists thrive on.

Sometimes I think you evolutionists willingly choose to go against a "higher power" in some act of rebellion, just to "fight for a cause", sticking it to the man. You arent revolutionary or more perceptive than the creationists or any other person. All your scientific evidence proves nothing for mankind's future. So what if we did evolve from apes? Now what? You honestly think we can steer our evolution into super beings? Lets hope the nitpickng arrogance of the evolutionsts isnt seen in their majority.

"None of your creationist, biblical GARBAGE helps us understand ANY of these things" Well done Matt.

Its sad to see the amount of "religious arrogant dogma" that is spewed from you evolutionists if a creationist called your scientific research GARBAGE. The sad thing is none of you understand that the bible is 95 percent about morals and spirituality, bettering one's soul for righteousness. When you call things biblical garbage, your not calling some McGraw hill textbook garbage, your calling someone's way of life garbage.

Which reiterates my standing on this fruitless converstion. It only shows the stupidity of each side, no merits.

Hey, anonymous, btw, I thought of about two things from your last post...

Something I seem to remember reading said that Einstien, as best as I could understand it, actually used the Bible to form his theory of relativity. I think he did something like go into the Greek/Hebrew/whatever-original-language for the Bible in Genesis for the word "light" in two different spots and found that one was more of a "source light" and another a "light from the source" and somehow got his theory from this... Now, I don't remember exactly what it said, but I seem to remember getting that conclusion before.

...Oh, almost forgot...

The other thing I thought of from your post was that I read another thing (do I read a lot? ... Oh wait, did I read this or see on tv or a video/dvd? I don't remember which... ) that one of the ribs in a male (maybe female too?) actually can grow back! Pretty cool, huh? I'm guessing that's the one God would have used...

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They cant stand the fact that Man isn't something special and unique, that Man is just an animal

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Hey, I love animals!, <see my avatar> but they ain't comparable to us humans.

They simply do not have our intelligence!


Now, when is the last time you seen an ape, for example, make something complicated like a car?

LOL Hello? Let's be smart people? haha

I'm anonymous by the way. So, yeah.

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What about my examples of the coconut crab for instance, having both non-functioning gills, and air-breathing "lungs" that still need some water to function? How do you account for this unless you accept that at some point this animal's ancestors lived wholely in the water?

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I love you for bringing this up. Because I'm going to once again use science to show you why your materialistic faith is unfounded.

When I first read this part I thought, 'Man, this might be pretty decent proof towards evolution if its true.' However, unlike you, I prefer to discover things for myself, and pursue the truth instead of simply letting others tell me what the truth is. No offense, but the only way you would use the coconut crab as proof of evolution is if you simply let someone tell you it was proof because in fact the coconut crab is yet another proof that not only is there no such thing as an intermediate adaptation, but there is abundant proof in nature that creatures were created to be perfectly suited to their environment. Not following me? I'll highlight exactly why you're wrong.

Here's a couple links, but don't click them yet. I'll copy and paste a few highlights from them, and then you can click the links to verify that I'm not pulling this stuff from my butt.

http://www.bespokeexperience.com/en/1/coswillancoc.mxs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_crab

edit: I can't find enough information about the larval stage of crabs for now, so I have to leave this statement out. My point still stands just as strong without it anyway, so whatever.

"Afterwards, they live on the ocean floor"

The very same place where they would drown if there GILLS weren't put to good use.

Here's a bit more wisdom from scientists.

"After these 28 days, they leave the ocean permanently and lose the ability to breathe in water."

And lose the ability to breath in water. How, might I ask would they breath in water in the first place? Same as tadpoles: gills. However, unlike tadpoles, they don't completely lose their gills when they mature. So, just because the gills are useless to the adults, doesn't mean they're useless to them altogether. Without the gills, the crab would be extinct within one generation.


Now. If you'll please stop acting like Christians are ignorant and blindly faithful. My 'blind faith' led me to the truth. What did your blind faith do? It misled you.

This is why Christians who understand science find 'materialism' and evolution (not science) to be utterly ridiculous. The only way you can believe in your faith that you've chosen is if you choose to believe a lot of half truths and outright lies.

I could have let myself fall prey to the easy conclusion that the gills were useless, but I thought for a moment, "Maybe there's some point in their life cycle where they become useful." God, in all of his wisdom, adapted these animals perfectly to their environment, not random chance. Believe what you want, but this is yet another illustration of why evolution has no foundation.

Keep 'em coming. Like I said, it only takes a bit of scientific research along with common sense to find the truth that materialists hide from the general public.

You can keep believing in evolution if you want, its your choice, but don't attack christians as if you're above us. We're not the simpletons that the media loves to portray us as. We have the same desire to pursue the truth as anybody else. And I don't care if the pope or any other 'christian' believes in evolution. The Pope himself will have to answer for the lies he helps spread and the souls he's managed to turn away from God in the process, that's for him to deal with. Let's stick to the real issue.

The earth is not billions of years old, and God didn't create life simply to let us be born out of death. If that were so, the entire Bible is compromised and we may as well be animals. In that case, there are no answers in this universe and none of us are better than the most evil of humanity because God has turned his back on us. We weren't created from death, and there's more in our future than death. Nitro, don't compromise that important truth in favor of the views of so called scientists. The truth is on our side.

I challenge anyone on this forum to go back to my original post in this thread and refute ANY of those points. Materialism has no foundation, and while you all love to attack christianity, you failed to defend science on any of the points that I brought up. Quit trying to keep us on the defensive, and if you're so sure you're right, back up your faith with proof. I know you can't, and I'm so sure I'm right that I know that if you actually take the time to research anything I've said you'll realize for yourself that materialism and evolution have no foundation.

But I'm not going to keep discussing this if the only way you people will talk is if its to attack christianity. If christianity is so ridiculous, then let's stick to the scientific. Defend your faith. That's all I ask.

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So far no evidence has contradicted evolution.

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I think I should compile an entire post on the fossil record. Because I'm tired of you guys referring to it, as if the mere mention of it is proof. Use your brain, scientists can't find the real missing links. Lizards with wings? Did it ever occur to scientists that these lizards needed wings to survive? Why do wings automatically mean its intermediate?

If you understood the actual truth behind the fossil record, you would know why it disproves evolution. Go to a museum once. There are all these really amazing dinosaurs, but where are their intermediates? You NEVER see them. Because they don't exist (this is called scientific thinking). You could say that they don't exist because we couldn't possibly find every single intermediate fossil because they don't all become fossilized. Believe that if you want, but you can't form a theory on a lack of evidence. That's unscientific. You either have to find the intermediate fossils, and formulate a theory, or have no theory. You can't formulate a theory and then assume that these fossils exist. That's unscientific and actually its what we Christians love to refer to as circular reasoning.

Ask any scientist to explain to you how we have such a wide variety of these dinosaurs without benefit of a HUGE (or for that matter medium or small) trail of intermediates between them all. They can't answer that question. The lack of evidence logically points to the idea that these animals were simply living at one point, not born from non existent ancestors.

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because science and the scientific method isn't about proofs

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Hmmm...That's scary. I suppose this is how scientists rationalize lying to students all over the entire country.

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he mainstream of Christians for instance, have learned to accept the Bible as an old group of texts, written and compiled by different poeple, and that many parts of it cannot be taken literally, because they are obviously untrue.

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How can someone who doesn't even believe in the Word of God begin to say they understand something about it? If we're not allowed to talk about evolution because we're too ignorant to understand it, then leave the Word of God out of this.

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You dont know anything about the probabilities of this. How do you calculate this, using your special probability drive?

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Actually there is a probability of proteins and amino acids randomly forming. If you compare that to the law of probability (a number set so arbitrarily high that any chance above it is considered scientifically absured), you see that the chance of a protein randomly forming is impossible. The number for the law of probability is 10 to the 51 I believe (I'm using a whole number instead of a fraction to keep things simple). The chance of a protein randomly forming doesn't even come close. Its at least three times as high. Thus making it scientifically absured. Look it up.

And by the way, that's just one protein. Now imagine all the building blocks of life randomly coming together to form a perfectly formed cell and we're talking beyond impossible. Time alone isn't the catalyst for a miracle, which is what life is.

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I would say the probability of us having evolved on earth is 100%, because it happened.

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Do you not see the circular reasoning of this? If probability says we can't have randomly appeared on earth, then wouldn't it be logical to assume we didn't? Saying something had to have happened just because you think it did is, of course, circular reasoning. I could say God created us because here we are. That would also be circular reasoning. However, unlike your side of the argument, I actually have the proof to back it up.

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So far no evidence has contradicted evolution. On the contrary quite the opposite has happened-- the theory has been validated time after time by new discoveries-- in genetics, molecular, paleontolgy, and comparative anatomy.

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To show you why you're wrong, you have to understand that scientists believe the theory is true before proving it. They simply ONLY find truth that collaborates their view. I'll take the theory apart slowly but surely in my posts. But I don't have the time or space on this forum to do it all at once.

The fact is, more and more scientists are starting to understand that spontaneous creation of life and therefore evolution are falling apart the more that science discovers about life. Start at the beginning. What scientists have discovered about the origin of life paints a pretty dreary picture of their theories. I'm sure you won't actually research it, because you're already sure you're right. But I'll dig up that link again anyway, in case you feel like doing a bit of critical thinking.

Here's an interesting link where a few scientists point out that not only is every experiment that attempts to prove that life started randomly failing miserably, but that science textbooks are outright lying about the results to convince our nation's youth that evolution is true.

http://www.arn.org/docs/mills/gm_originoflifeandevolution.htm

This is not only a problem, this is literally brainwashing. Thanks materialism.

Good job Irish_Farmer! (non-sarcastic) And that whole thing about proteins and life forming randomly: That is, of course, just one good example of why evolution couldn't be true... Just think how much the "scientists" have basically failed trying to make life... or even trying to clone animals... or the chiwawa (definitely spelled wrong, I think). Did you know that the way the "scientists" made the chiwawa, from what I heard, was they just removed stuff from it's genetics (or whatever). It's not like they added stuff, they just took stuff away... My point is, if we as humans can't even make life, or even a good clone or new species (or sub-species: whatever the right term is) then how could it seem possible that "chance" or "randomness" made life? Seriously, if someone can completely prove evolution, go ahead, but at the moment, I don't see how it could be true.

To somewhat quote something else I read: Don't let your pride or what you've been taught get in the way from discovering the truth.

Everyone try to stop going for what "feels right" and look to the facts... And I mean the "real" facts, not the ones people claim are true but can't stand up to attacks... Even in the Bible, when it's talking about the Armor of God, the part of the Armor for truth is the belt. In roman armor, the belt is what basically kept the armor together, without it you become defenseless... the same thing is true in real life if you don't have truth!

- Just adding a note that this post was edited and has more stuff in it now.

is this 6000 years old earth calculation use the same methods that over the past two thousand years the ever changing predictions of when the 2nd comming of christ is predicted to happen?

I do believe that theologic scholars seem to keep missing the mark on the year it suppost to happen. with allot of followers having to suffer because they happend to give away all their earthly possesions time and again just prior to these dates then have to find a way to live afterwards

yes, i know thologists figure this number of years by supposedly counting the generations backwards though the bible. So does this include the 73 books of the roman chatholic books of teh bible. or the 66 books of the king james version or the origial 81 books of teh King James bible before the arch bishop of cantabury removed 16 ?

or the original 600 books when emporer Constantine commisioned the first bible to be written. ( which was later weeded down to eliminatate all the pagansium in the original christian religion)

does it take into account other books from various denomitaions?

does it include the parts of the hebrew texts (Koran) the christans didn't adopt when making the old testiment?

see, creationists have a serious tendancy to PICK and choose and just so SIMPLY ignore or toss aside anything they just don't like. Because it doesn;t fit your pre concieved ideals.

You know its amazing how many of the 7 deadly sins chreationists constantly break. considering thier entire goal is to find their own self richousness ( yet again a sin of your own religion)


'Creationists live by faith in things unseen'
nope, creationists believe in things they are told.
christains ( at least when I went to church) are told to find god and christ in the world around us. ( not in the 'unseen' )

Gallop poll on creationisum and evolution

40% of americans do not have a correct understanding of evolution ( this thread shows allot of evidance of that)
nearly 50% of americans do not have a clear understanding of creationisum ( again this thread shows allot of even so called believers know so little of thier own 'belief')

40% of american scientists believe in god
5% of american scientists believe in creationisum
(scientists polled consisted of mainstream sciences like biology and geology, and non mainstream sciences like health science, computer science engineering etc)



in otherwords. take some time and ACTUALY learn something WITHOUT a biased opinion going into it.

learn evolution
learn creationsium

learn how a specific science ACTUALY works before making biased, ignorant argumentitive claims

you believe in god, great. god gave you a brain, use it.



"Now, when is the last time you seen an ape, for example, make something complicated like a car?

LOL Hello? Let's be smart people? haha"

whens the last time you seen apes wage war, imprison, torture and murder millions of thier own speices because one group thinks 'thier god is better then other groups god, and if you don't follow ours your less than human'

whos the smart one?

at least apes live in harmoney with its enviroment and socialy between its own race, only becoming violent for self defense.


"but no animals have souls/spirits - whatever the right word is and I think it would be very hard to make them... and what about thoughts? Animals don't think, as far as I know"

and how can you prove you DO have a soul or that animals do not? you cannot. this is just an unfounded statement of self-supeiriority
animals don;t think? you've never been around animals then. animals think, have feelings, fear, humor, understand death and even some understand and will commit pre meditated murder. and not just primeapes either

Ok, I might agree on the animals with feelings. But, about the soul/spirit and thoughts thing: I guess I just don't know. We know we have thoughts, but to my knowledge, we can't read the minds of animals yet...

But, of course, you didn't even mention the other things we mentioned: sun/moon distance, proteins and life forming randomly... sure, I'm not rushing you, but do you have anything on those topics to back up your side?

Ok, about the 6,000 years thing: I think this might have been from the KJV Bible. It might be even more accurate in the original language, but, for english, I'd say this would be about the best translation of the Bible. Also, for those of you Bible people, there's a verse in the Bible that says something like, to God a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. And, of course, in Genesis, the universe is made in 6 days, then God rests on the 7th. I think this is not only an example on how we should live our lives but also has something to do with the other verse I referenced... And, although, I do have an opinion on this, I'm pretty sure you evolutionists would find it boring and absurd... and that's fine... I'd rather be part of "the few".