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Re: for doubters of God's existance
[Re: Blattsalat]
#66606
04/01/06 01:18
04/01/06 01:18
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 535
Michigan
ICEman
Developer
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Developer
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 535
Michigan
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Who or what, besides our books, says our creator is almight..or a God at all? Obviously if it exists, its capable of great power, but what besides us says that it has to be this..wizard,, immortal, omnieverything, magician?
I think part of the reason God is such a mystery is because we dont explore all possibilites of what he could be, so we'd never know what to look for.
I'm ICEman, and I approved this message.
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Re: for doubters of God's existance
[Re: Blattsalat]
#66607
04/01/06 02:24
04/01/06 02:24
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
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Nicely put, Marco. I'm glad someone with some actual understanding of science has entered the debate. This should be interesting. Let me first start by appending my thesis. I really shouldn't say I'm setting out to disprove evolution. That's beyond pointless. However, what I won't do is stop until any other evolutionist who wants to pursue the debate will admit that evolution must be accepted by faith, not proof, and that the current 'proof' of evolution is based on assumptions. That said, I will respectfully request some time to study up. I have responses, but you're raising the level of the discussion up to something I can't put into words based on my current knowledge. Also, I know I misrepresented my understanding of Genes. However, it was more of a misrepresentation of an idea. I know what genes are, I've talked to scientists and studies DNA and Genes and protein and all of that (from secular sources). I misrepresented the idea was trying to convey. That said, I know why I'm right, but I don't have the specific evidence to back it up. And I know it isn't fair to just bring ideas into the discussion. Matt and Blatt, its not even worth responding to you anymore. You insist on bringing up the same points, and we can run around in circles for years and still get no where. I mean, you keep bringing up these vestigial gills. The very same gills that if the crab didn't have them, it would die off in one generation. You may know a thing or two about biology and science, but its nothing without logic. The only way this discussion is going to go anywhere is if its between Marco and I at this point. I'll be back. Quote:
I don't want to put words in Irish_Farmer's mouth, but I think he understands that. His claim seems to be, that additions to an organism's anatomy require a miracle, whereas loss of features is explained by genetics/evolution.
To an extent. But my main claim is that vestigial organs cannot exist if those same organs have a purpose. So far every example of a vestigial organ has turned out to actually have a purpose, thus making it very un-vestigial.
I mean...one of you brought up the appendix, which scientists now widely recognize as an aid to the immune system. It baffles my mind what's so hard to understand about why that means its not a vestigial organ. Its not even worth talking about it anymore.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: for doubters of God's existance
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#66608
04/01/06 03:31
04/01/06 03:31
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,236
San Diego, CA
Marco_Grubert
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San Diego, CA
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Quote:
To an extent. But my main claim is that vestigial organs cannot exist if those same organs have a purpose. So far every example of a vestigial organ has turned out to actually have a purpose, thus making it very un-vestigial.
I mean...one of you brought up the appendix, which scientists now widely recognize as an aid to the immune system. It baffles my mind what's so hard to understand about why that means its not a vestigial organ. Its not even worth talking about it anymore.
Just a quick note on this: vestigial does not mean "without purpose". According to the Oxford English Dictionary vestigial="degenerate, rudimentary, or atrophied, having lost its function in the course of evolution".
The appendix plays a minor role in the immune system and you can live without it , it's part of the digestive tract but no longer has its original function, thus atrophied is an appropriate description of its status.
What makes vestigial organs interesting in this context is that you can see how they are essential in one organism and how in other organisms you find similar structures yet they only play a minor role or none at all. The similarity is a good clue to common descent, the existence of a suboptimal organ hints at a suboptimal "designer".
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Re: for doubters of God's existance
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#66609
04/01/06 04:13
04/01/06 04:13
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 51
Neonotso
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 51
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Wow, a lot has happened since I was away...  Hey, Irish_Farmer, you basically said you only wanted this discussion to be between you and Macro, but may I join in?  Quote:
Now look at the snakes for a moment. Modern snbakes have no visible limbs at all. Yet we know they evolved fomr lizard-like animals that had four limbs. We know this in part becasue we can find vestigial traces of limbs in the skeleton.
Good job, you found something is actually also kind of true to creationists and Christians alike (if they'd study their Bible). If you read the Bible, you may notice that Satan was a very good angel, like God's right hand man, so to speak, but then, because of his pride he was kicked out of heaven. He then took the form of a serpant, and deceived the people of the time to eat the fruit that was forbidden to eat (trying not to go into too much details for you evolutionists), and was punished by God in this verse:
"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed avove all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of they life:" - Genesis 3:14
...I know, I know, I'm not supposed to quote the Bible, according to one of you guys over there; But, it's kind of easier to quote it than to come up with own translation... Anyway, if you evolutionists didn't catch the main point of that verse, it is... "upon thy belly shalt thou go". Apparently, yes, it did have legs, why else would God curse the serpant to go upon it's belly? It wasn't on it's belly before.
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Creationists fear evolution. Because creationists center upon one important aspect. Man is divine, above all other things in creation. hence you see such notions as animals unitelligant, no souls, cannot communicate. Man is superior to all but his creator. "his is to have dominion over all life on earth" as I believe the bible says ( or at least how some people read it as such).
First, we don't fear evolution (or shouldn't). And, again, if you read the Bible, we are not the highest form of creation: the angels are.
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What drives creationists? The assention, Rapture what ever you want to call it. the end of time, when ALL human souls at the end of time rise to sit with the father in heaven. This of course will neer happen in christianity untill 'ALL of mankind follow the true faith'.
First thing is, I think you mean Christians...  Also, unfortunately lots of Christians don't think the Rapture is real, or they think it's after the Great Triblulation (another Biblical event), or think it's just some thing that's happening in the distant future, and that it is of no importance to them... So, I'd say, definitely "no", the Rapture doesn't drive most Christians.
Another thing is, where are you getting this "ALL of mankind follow the true faith' stuff?? Certainly not the Bible... it's nowhere to be found. Maybe a crazy church, but it's not the way things really are. The Rapture WILL happen, and not only that but it will happen soon, even if all the people are not ready for it, the true Christians (as in the ones who don't just call themselves Christians... or the ones who don't just do good works: the ones who have accepted and believe in the fact that God as Jesus, died on the cross for our sins) will go up to Heaven for a time and... well, if you guys want me to go on, you can say so, but I've covered the point I was trying to make and you evolutionists are probably bored reading this...
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evolotion ( and science) is resisted by creationists because scince tells us we don't know everything. That all things are not plainly layed out before us and thier is nothing more to know. Something yet again creationsists have absoultuly fought against thoughout history.
I don't know if I understood this, but do you mean that we as creationists resist science because we think we're supposed to know everything and have it plainly layed out before us? Well, let me tell you, if you think I, or any other creationist thinks they know everything and has it plainly layed out, well... that SHOULDN'T be true, as no one knows everything and has in plainly layed out, but I'll bet some people think they do know everything and think that they do have it plainly layed out. But, I certainly do think (or rather hope) that the majority of creationists don't think they know everything.
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Did you know the catholic church yet even today has never offialy accpeted that the earth and the planets orbit the sun? SO how do you expect them to accept evolution?
They won't even fix miss translations and spelling mistakes made centures ago so as to not to upset the now accepted doctrines of the church and its 'holy book'
Would you please stop relating the Christians and/or creationists to the catholics? Though I'll bet most of them claim to be Christians, a lot (if not all) are not. I'm not sure if I've got this straight, but I think they might actually use a different Bible than us Christians also.
- I hope I've been helpful to someone and I hope I've said everything right.
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Re: for doubters of God's existance
[Re: Matt_Aufderheide]
#66611
04/01/06 19:16
04/01/06 19:16
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
Blattsalat
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
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@iceman: the human definition of god is that he is almighty. I didnt set those rule nor do i agree to it but thats the biblical explenation and one ... the major pillar of the religion. There is no inbetween, either he is god or not. I would rather suppor the theory that planet earth is some sort of alien wildlife park that was created then to agree to a theory of an old, bearded man sitting in some clouds and creating the world. If you say that god or religion is a spiritual power then i would agree. But this "power" then wouldnt have direct impact on anything. Its the people that believe in it that make this spiritual power work. And this is why i agree that you can be a man of science and a religious person at the same time. neither is religion or believe bad or wrong, i honestly think its a positive thing and something worth having. The only thing i dont "believe" in is the modern organized religion. Religion isnt ment to explain biology or evolution. Its also not ment to build cars and create toothbrushes. it doesnt explain how things work but the ideology behind it. Sone though want it to become a guideline for everything and thats not how its ment to work. and whenever the run out of arguments they stop the discussion. and that happens very often and very fast. the bottom line is that if someone wants to believe that the earth was created by god he should do so if he likes. So far i just havent heared one single good and somehow stable argument for this. but i guess thats also not neccessary at all. In the end its about believing and not knowing
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Re: for doubters of God's existance
[Re: Blattsalat]
#66612
04/01/06 23:49
04/01/06 23:49
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
User
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User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
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You guys are gonna love what I've got cooking up for you. I've been finding out a lot of really interesting things about mutations and genetics. Highly interesting. The only thing holding me up now is that I have to keep branching off to study specific details of things like speciation, types of mutation, and natural 'anti-mutations.'
My response, in full, will be here either tonight or tomorrow.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: for doubters of God's existance
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#66613
04/02/06 00:03
04/02/06 00:03
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 51
Neonotso
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 51
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Quote:
You guys are gonna love what I've got cooking up for you. I've been finding out a lot of really interesting things about mutations and genetics. Highly interesting. The only thing holding me up now is that I have to keep branching off to study specific details of things like speciation, types of mutation, and natural 'anti-mutations.'
My response, in full, will be here either tonight or tomorrow.
Ok, cool. Sounds like it should be interesting. I guess that's why you haven't posted much today, right?
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Re: for doubters of God's existance
[Re: Neonotso]
#66614
04/03/06 20:22
04/03/06 20:22
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,236
San Diego, CA
Marco_Grubert
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,236
San Diego, CA
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Quote:
Would you please stop relating the Christians and/or creationists to the catholics? Though I'll bet most of them claim to be Christians, a lot (if not all) are not. I'm not sure if I've got this straight, but I think they might actually use a different Bible than us Christians also.
While American born-agains might not consider Catholics to be Christians in the rest of the world they are regarded as such.
The Catholic bible has some extra documents. E.g. you can get a Protestant and a Catholic version of the RSV.
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