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Re: cause
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#69211
06/06/06 08:23
06/06/06 08:23
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,978
Frankfurt
jcl
OP
Chief Engineer
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OP
Chief Engineer
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,978
Frankfurt
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Quote:
I just don't think that the evidence is as conclusive as you'd like me to believe. In fact, its pretty easy to see. Random news clippings about them being wrong about the distance of objects by 100s of millions of lightyears, etc.
You misunderstood something. If a scientist measures a property X (f.i. the distance of a star), he gives as result X +/-Y. Y is the error in his measurement, and has to be carefully derived.
Thus, science does not tell that the age of the univese is 13.7 billion years. It's 13.7 (+/-0.2) billion years. 20 years ago, it was like 10 (+/-5) billion years. And in 5 years, after evaluation of the Plack probe date, it will be more precise, like 13.72 (+/-0.03) billion years.
Even theories are modified or replaced whenever a new observation contradicts them. Because a change of a theory generates many Nobel prizes, all scientists are eager to find such contradictions. Thus, if a theory survives this process - as evolution, or Big Bang - you can be pretty sure that it's consistent with all current observations.
Hope this helps understanding.
Quote:
he's the God who created thermodynamics. Which, coincidentally, predicts that life will never start on its own. If you want a lesson in thermodynamics, just ask.
Of course. We had already discussed early in this thread how life started, and I thought we were finished with that, but if you want to give a lesson, please go ahead. For your preparation:
http://www.wiley.com/legacy/college/boyer/0470003790/reviews/thermo/thermo_intro.htm
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Re: cause
[Re: jcl]
#69213
06/06/06 17:06
06/06/06 17:06
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
User
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User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
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Quote:
ou misunderstood something. If a scientist measures a property X (f.i. the distance of a star), he gives as result X +/-Y. Y is the error in his measurement, and has to be carefully derived.
Thus, science does not tell that the age of the univese is 13.7 billion years. It's 13.7 (+/-0.2) billion years. 20 years ago, it was like 10 (+/-5) billion years. And in 5 years, after evaluation of the Plack probe date, it will be more precise, like 13.72 (+/-0.03) billion years.
Yeah, I think you're getting earth and universe ages mixed up with real values like the speed of light, or pi. Because those only change by a small amount to become more accurate. The earth has gone from several hundred million years to 4.6 billion years. Its not accuracy correction when it doubles in value every twenty years (until today). Could you imagine if the speed of light did that?
You may be looking at only the most recent measurements of the universe by the way. It too takes leaps and bounds. Its not just shaving off the excess error, its proving that the old values were error altogether. Yet they're touted as truth.
I understand that they'll modify the age when they find new 'evidence'. But real life values don't change that much. We take a measurement, and then refine it, we don't throw out the original measurement and make a whole new one. That just proves that we didn't know it to begin with, and to me proves that we never really can know for sure (despite claims).
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: cause
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#69214
06/06/06 17:10
06/06/06 17:10
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
User
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User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
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Oh yeah, did we discuss the origin of life? I thought I mentioned how experiments failed, and then you guys just kind of gave up on that one.
edit: That link you gave was pretty much what I've already caught up on, except trying to go to the third page gave me an error, so I didn't see what I assumed would be the the conclusion about life being able to start on its own.
But then I can guess the article is going to conclude with the observation that thermodynamics permits some of the materials of life to be made. In which case we'll be right back where we started.
Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 06/06/06 17:19.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: cause
[Re: jcl]
#69216
06/07/06 05:41
06/07/06 05:41
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
User
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User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
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Ah, I must have gotten caught up in the other debates. I think I've done that quite a few times, which reminds me also to get back on that bible thread.
Anyway, yeah I did actually follow through, got myself a lesson in thermodynamics (similar to what you linked to, although I could only read the first two pages of your website before I got an error).
But the website I got my lesson in thermodynamics presented basically what your source did. It was divided into three lessons. One was theory, two was practical application, and three was practical application also, but more specific.
So, yes, we can continue this one. Although I'll probably brush up on thermodynamics again.
But anyway, I did follow the link. Is it not giving an error to you on the third page?, because I tried hitting continue about four times and....maybe its just my browser.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: cause
[Re: jcl]
#69218
06/07/06 16:10
06/07/06 16:10
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
NITRO777
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
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It produces errors with Firefox also. The first time it opened fine, but when I went to the table of contents it gave me an error, then subsequent attempts to open it failed and succeeded. It seems to open up sometimes, but sometimes it doesnt, I dont know why.
Last edited by NITRO777; 06/07/06 16:14.
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Re: cause
[Re: NITRO777]
#69219
06/09/06 19:16
06/09/06 19:16
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
User
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User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
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Actually, before I present my case. I'm just wondering. How do you believe life can start without violating thermodynamics? In simple terms. If you can (I'm not sure what you believe) would you be able to sum it up in a short paragraph?
Not to completely make your entire case, but just so that we have a starting point.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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