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Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox) [Re: jcl] #76327
07/24/06 19:06
07/24/06 19:06

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" Then why bother about Jesus at all?"

-------------------------------------
Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God,
"who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
-------------------------------------

Answer --> Because He is the Alpha and Omega lol

http://www.noahsadventures.com/downloads/call-2.mp3

Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox) [Re: Irish_Farmer] #76328
07/24/06 19:16
07/24/06 19:16
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
Blattsalat Offline
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Blattsalat  Offline
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-->..Only for the atheist. If I was skeptical of atoms, I'm sure I could come up with questions. The amount of questions isn't parallel to the truth of the claim...

no. but the ammount of answers is a good way and start


the general problem when talking about prophecies from written books starts when people ignore the fact that the ones who killed jesus read that stuff as well.

if hanging someone is the most humiliating way to punish a religious person at this time, logic can only have one conclusion.

the entire texts of such books are not more then presumption and guessing. If bent enough or you accept enough things the texts can fit to something you need.

if jesus wouldnt have been nailed to the cross the interpretation of the phrase "pierced my hand and feet" would be something like "they tried to stop me from doing gods work and spreading it arround the believers". simply because pierced hand stand for the unability to continue to work and the feet wouldnt allow you to go arround.
Either by real punishment, an assassination attack or the unability to move or do by some sort of arrest or the fact that his followers quit and so on and so forth.

allowing room for everything, interpreting the happened to the texts and puttin all of this on hear-saying and the fact that most of this was written by religious motivated people later on is not a good basement for a fact.

for example the koran also mentions the story of jesus and his death. in their version he doesnt rais from the dead.

also its not right to think that only one movement has been found after jesus died. here have been different fractions but the current christian "won the battle". So even at that time people didnt agree on what happened.

one major reason not to believe in his reincarnation is how it has happened (i am not talking about empty graves and such). Instead of going public to once and for all make his claim solid that he has come back, all of this happened only amongst a few of his "followers" (bias).

so basicly the only source for the truth of this story are the poeple who whre connected to it right from the start.

in no courtroom in this world (not sure about texas though ) this would be used as an evidence.
So you allow me and the rest of the world to keep sceptical

I am not going to answer the other points since you made it yourself pretty worthless and there is no use in arguing about it. You are spinning back and forth all the time as it fits your needs and you are knowinlgy ditching facts that are uncomfortable for you.

I have no problem at all exchanging different views of a story but if you want to make something a statement or fact you will need evidence for it.

And one more thing i totaly disagree with you is the fact that jesus is a must for a true believer.
because this is not what religion is all about.

If you tag a "dont drink and drive" sticker on a car it doesnt matter if its a porsche 911 or some fiat punto.
The message doesnt lose its quality.

cheers


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Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox) [Re: Blattsalat] #76329
07/27/06 23:09
07/27/06 23:09
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer Offline
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Quote:

the general problem when talking about prophecies from written books starts when people ignore the fact that the ones who killed jesus read that stuff as well.




If you honestly think that (assuming for some crazy reason these people would want to) Jesus' killers were TRYING to fulfill prophecy, then you're reading a different bible than me. In fact, the Psalms connection wasn't made until Jesus cried, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" There was no reason for them to make the connection.

Furthermore, I doubt the Romans cast lots for his clothes (a common practice) specifically to fulfill Psalms 22.

It would take more chance for these prophecies to be false (assuming these things actually happened) than it would for someone to accidentally predict these things.

Quote:

the entire texts of such books are not more then presumption and guessing. If bent enough or you accept enough things the texts can fit to something you need.




I've already said you can calculate reasonable and unreasonable probability. Math disagrees with you. For the last time: your only option is to claim that all of Jesus' life was made up to fulfill prophecy.

Quote:

if jesus wouldnt have been nailed to the cross the interpretation of the phrase "pierced my hand and feet" would be something like "they tried to stop me from doing gods work and spreading it arround the believers". simply because pierced hand stand for the unability to continue to work and the feet wouldnt allow you to go arround.
Either by real punishment, an assassination attack or the unability to move or do by some sort of arrest or the fact that his followers quit and so on and so forth.




It specifically talks about the hands and feet while opening with 'my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?' while predicting His clothes would be divided up amongst his mockers as well as predicting his circumstances (mockers, etc).

So your interpretation is inadequate.

Quote:

allowing room for everything, interpreting the happened to the texts and puttin all of this on hear-saying and the fact that most of this was written by religious motivated people later on is not a good basement for a fact.




Well, that's your reason for not believing it. I would have to accept that these people put up with persecution, abuse, prison, and ultimately death just to spread a lie for their own amusement. Then I would have to throw out all of the prophecy in the Old Testament and undermine the entire bible. That's why I find it a pretty good way to base my beliefs.

Quote:

for example the koran also mentions the story of jesus and his death. in their version he doesnt rais from the dead.




By this reasoning I can prove the koran wrong. How? Because the bible says otherwise. But this, like your statement, just begs the question. Contradicting beliefs aren't very good proof.

Quote:

And one more thing i totaly disagree with you is the fact that jesus is a must for a true believer.
because this is not what religion is all about.




What does this mean?


So this Sai Baba guy or whatever had some christ-like claims. Which, if anything, gives Jesus more credibility. Everything is beginning to happen exactly as He said it would.

I don't base my faith in Jesus on His miracles, by the by.

Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 07/27/06 23:10.

"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox) [Re: Irish_Farmer] #76330
07/30/06 12:18
07/30/06 12:18
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
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Quote:

But turning water into wine really isn't that important. How about a bigger one like healing a blind man that everyone knew had been blind his whole life? That's not a copperfield-style trick, you'd have to claim that its a lie.

If copperfield came and healed my cousin who has been deaf her whole life, I would be truly stumped as to how he could fake that.




Well yes off course this would imply a lie or a trick too. It's possible to fake to be deaf, possible to fake to be blind too. However, faking to be blind is something that's harder when everybody knows the person for like forever. Anyway, it's very possible to trick people. Even Copperfield once or twice might have used a "random" person from the public and did a certain trick, which can only be succesful, when the person from the public is actually an insider and compagnon.

I'm only stating that it's possible to trick people like this, I'm not saying it must have happened this way, there's no way in knowing this.

But to me, this is more than just a possibility anyhow, considered all the other lack of solid proof. So yes, I'm biased maybe, but for good reasons.

Quote:

By this reasoning I can prove the koran wrong. How? Because the bible says otherwise. But this, like your statement, just begs the question. Contradicting beliefs aren't very good proof.




That's also a reason why any text about 'history' can be very questionable. It's also not any different when it comes to the bible, so basically this argument is valid. Yes, contradicting beliefs are not good proof, they proof nothing, however extra caution of taking everything for granted would be in place nevertheless.

Cheers

Last edited by PHeMoX; 07/30/06 12:21.

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For more info visit: Innervision Software
Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox) [Re: PHeMoX] #76331
07/30/06 20:18
07/30/06 20:18
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer Offline
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Wisconsin
Quote:

I'm only stating that it's possible to trick people like this, I'm not saying it must have happened this way, there's no way in knowing this.




All right, this is a fair point. I guess at this point we'll have to agree to disagree.

Quote:

That's also a reason why any text about 'history' can be very questionable. It's also not any different when it comes to the bible, so basically this argument is valid. Yes, contradicting beliefs are not good proof, they proof nothing, however extra caution of taking everything for granted would be in place nevertheless.





True. Really, most people aren't converted to Christianity once they're convinced the bible is 100% accurate. I suppose atheists could call this a psychological 'glitch' in the human mind, but we base our belief off of a personal 'revelation' of God which is typically brought on by reading the bible. Humphreys for instance talks about reading the gospel of Mark or someone and then becoming a Christian for instance.

For me, watching the prophecies of the bible come true, even today, is just the icing on the cake. Per se.

I've had my doubts about the bible, but in retrospect, I've noticed most of them were based on faulty reasoning. I'm not saying that I know enough about the bible to say for 100% there's no 'problem' in it, but considering that in my study of it so far I have yet to encounter one, I don't mind.

Anyway, I think we've gotten about as far in this discussion as we can. Its been pretty interesting, but I think I've said all that I can.

Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 07/30/06 20:19.

"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox) [Re: Irish_Farmer] #76332
08/05/06 20:32
08/05/06 20:32
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
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PHeMoX  Offline
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Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
Quote:

Really, most people aren't converted to Christianity once they're convinced the bible is 100% accurate. I suppose atheists could call this a psychological 'glitch' in the human mind, but we base our belief off of a personal 'revelation' of God which is typically brought on by reading the bible.




Mmmm, if there is such a glitch then I would be really surprised about it. I think it's more like, people usually don't get convinced of christianity simply by reading the bible.

I don't believe in these personal 'revelations' either, a person can decide what's right for example, without feeling enlightened or something or 'touched by the devine'. You might see what I mean, 'personal revelation' is kinda vague and pretty much solely based upon emotion, what kind of 'proof' or reason to believe is that?

You'd be surprised to know how much bad things happen just as we act out of pure emotions ... ow and then I'm not even talking about hate,

Cheers


PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox) [Re: PHeMoX] #76333
08/16/06 11:44
08/16/06 11:44
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3
J
Jie Offline
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Jie  Offline
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J

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3
C. said:God is a girl..

Re: Who's god's god? (kudos to phemox) [Re: Jie] #76334
08/23/06 12:54
08/23/06 12:54
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 535
Michigan
ICEman Offline
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ICEman  Offline
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Posts: 535
Michigan
How christianity is popular outside the 1st world:

Hah.. just put yourself in the shoes of a less fortunate African or a Carib villiager..

"I'll convert to anything as long as you give me the food you promised."


I'm ICEman, and I approved this message.
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