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Re: Consciousness [Re: Matt_Aufderheide] #78587
06/22/06 23:04
06/22/06 23:04
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer Offline OP
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Irish_Farmer  Offline OP
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Quote:

That's actually *not* obvious. How do you know what the seat of consciousness is? For centuries people believed that the heart was the seat of the mind, not the brain.

While science has shown that the brain is indeeed responsible for most cognition, its not an obvious fact. In fact it wasnt until the 19th century that scientists realized that the physical structure of the brain was directly responsible for thing lie personality, emotion, and so on.




You're really going to tell me that you think some cognition comes from outside the brain? Then you either believe people are in some ways supernatural, or you believe in some other kind of supernatural...something.

I guess I don't get what the problem is here. We know the general role of the brain. Exactly how the brain works is still a mystery, but that doesn't mean we don't know what its job is.


"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
Re: Consciousness [Re: Irish_Farmer] #78588
06/23/06 00:12
06/23/06 00:12
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,131
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Matt_Aufderheide Offline
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Matt_Aufderheide  Offline
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Quote:

You're really going to tell me that you think some cognition comes from outside the brain?




No I'm not telling you that. Why do you insist on missing the point?

I'm saying that the brain being the seat of consciousness is not at all "obvious".

How do you know for sure it is? Because of what you "hear around"? In reality it probably is, but then, I dont know of any brains living on their own outside a body, so we cant really say for sure. Some anecdotes from multiple organ transplant patients suggest some personality traits may be related to other organs.

Anyway, since you dont agree with the scientific method, for all you know the brain could be a lump of coal.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About the cartoon and resistant bacteria: this is indeed a case of natural selection. It's not a case of ANY bacteria being resistant, its about specific strains and species that develop a resistance over time. This resistance is apprently selected in each generation, until the whole strain becomes resistant. Explain how else the species could become resistant across the board, except for natural selection.

Here again you display a basic lack of ability to come to grips with a logical argument that goes against your deeply helld beliefs. This is what fanaticism is.


Sphere Engine--the premier A6 graphics plugin.
Re: Consciousness [Re: Matt_Aufderheide] #78589
06/23/06 23:20
06/23/06 23:20
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer Offline OP
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Irish_Farmer  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Quote:

No I'm not telling you that. Why do you insist on missing the point?

I'm saying that the brain being the seat of consciousness is not at all "obvious".




Maybe not obvious to people who don't understand a thing about science. The brain is the central nervous system's processor. What else does the thinking? Our livers?

Quote:

How do you know for sure it is? Because of what you "hear around"?




Well, I suppose I could call scientists conspirators, but that would be pointless. I'd rather make a scientific argument, but there is no scientific argument against the idea that the brain is what causes our consciousness.

Quote:

but then, I dont know of any brains living on their own outside a body




That's irrelevant to whether or not the brain causes consciousness.

Quote:

Some anecdotes from multiple organ transplant patients suggest some personality traits may be related to other organs.




Ok, so personality may be relative to the loss of organs (or possibly its the events that lead to the loss?), but that doesn't mean consciousness is.

Quote:

About the cartoon and resistant bacteria: this is indeed a case of natural selection. It's not a case of ANY bacteria being resistant, its about specific strains and species that develop a resistance over time. This resistance is apprently selected in each generation, until the whole strain becomes resistant. Explain how else the species could become resistant across the board, except for natural selection.




Some bacteria already exist in these populations that are resistant, so the ones who aren't just die out. There's no evidence to suggest these resistances are change. Except in the rare case where a bacteria lost a receptor, or lost the ability to control enzyme production. You're not going to convince me that a germ turned into a man by telling me about all the structures its lost. That's not evolution.

I've already explain this in another thread, so I'm not going to go into it any further here. You can look it up in the other thread.

Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 06/23/06 23:22.

"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
Re: Consciousness [Re: Irish_Farmer] #78590
06/24/06 05:02
06/24/06 05:02

A
Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Okey.... first of all, weather is excedingly complicated.
Massive supercomputers with acces to all the data on earth can not accurately predict when a hurricane will form, where it will go, when an earthquake will happen. Next time the weather isn't what the tv says it is, don't blame the weatherman, blame the trillions of complicated calculations with terrabytes of data which lead to a faulty conclusion because of a single wrong temperature of an ocean current, or a tiny random data corruption. Read up on chaos theory, look up weather prediction...

But - that's not important to the discussion. Please don't flame me and then say I derailed it. That goes for everyone, it just needed to be claridied.


Anyways, CONCIOUSNESS!
It doesn't have to be pure chemicals that cause conciousness, or a soul. Why can't it be something else?
A few theories:


CEMI field Theory Abstract

Quantum Conciousness Abstract More indepth electromagnetic conciousness theory
Misc conciousness theory info

Re: Consciousness [Re: Matt_Aufderheide] #78591
06/29/06 20:50
06/29/06 20:50

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
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"I'm saying that the brain being the seat of consciousness is not at all "obvious"."


I'm still worried about the poor Jellyfish of the world.
Because they have NO brain whatsoever and my evolution teacher says humans evolved from fish.

http://www.extremescience.com/GiantJellyfish.htm

Somebody help the poor jellyfish please.

Matt says all creatures are the same, but the brainless jellyfish sounds like Matt sometimes.

Re: Consciousness #78592
06/29/06 21:20
06/29/06 21:20
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
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PHeMoX  Offline
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Quote:

Maybe not obvious to people who don't understand a thing about science. The brain is the central nervous system's processor.




Okey so how does the yellyfish work then? It's not that black and white in reality. Yes, we might agree that the yellyfish has no conscious, but only because we can't find it's brain equivalent? We know a lot about brains, but as far as I know it hasn't quite been determined wether or not it's the seat of our consciousness... (not that I would know any other place that would seem to be a more logic place for it btw.)

Cheers


PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
Re: Consciousness [Re: PHeMoX] #78593
06/29/06 21:59
06/29/06 21:59
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer Offline OP
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Irish_Farmer  Offline OP
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Wisconsin
I'd respond, but this has become a dead end.


"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
Re: Consciousness [Re: Matt_Aufderheide] #78594
10/08/06 14:39
10/08/06 14:39
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 246
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Alberto Offline
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Hello

I you go on "gamedev.net" web site "Artificial Intelligence " "Strong AI vs Weak AI" there is an interesting discussion about this topic.
In particular it is clearly explained the "Chinese room" example which I mentioned in this thread

Re: Consciousness [Re: Alberto] #78595
10/14/06 23:01
10/14/06 23:01
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer Offline OP
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Irish_Farmer  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Quote:

Okey so how does the yellyfish work then? It's not that black and white in reality. Yes, we might agree that the yellyfish has no conscious, but only because we can't find it's brain equivalent? We know a lot about brains, but as far as I know it hasn't quite been determined wether or not it's the seat of our consciousness... (not that I would know any other place that would seem to be a more logic place for it btw.)





We're talking about the brain being the seat of consciousness. Do you really think jellyfish are conscious? Jellyfish can move around and react to stimuli. But that has nothing to do with whether or not they're conscious.


"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
Re: Consciousness [Re: Irish_Farmer] #78596
10/15/06 13:42
10/15/06 13:42
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
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PHeMoX  Offline
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Posts: 8,177
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Quote:

We're talking about the brain being the seat of consciousness.




You think it's the seat of consciousness, you don't know that though, infact what more does our brain do then process lot's of stimuli?? As I said though, for our 'conscious' it would probably be a logical place to be, however our conscious may be not even more than simple impulses. We see things, we registrate what we see and we react on them. How we react on it depends on what we see, when we see it, how we see it and what we've seen in the past and what we still remember off that. Basic emotions may give it a more human shape, but that's about it.
How do you define a consciousness and how exactly do you think this would work biologically, when it's something different that 'a result of impulses'?

Cheers


PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
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