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Re: Consciousness
[Re: PHeMoX]
#78597
10/15/06 21:18
10/15/06 21:18
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Irish_Farmer
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A consciousness isn't just action/reaction to stimulus. Consciousness is an awareness, or understanding of the action/reaction, per se. For instance. When I'm looking at the computer screen, I'm actually looking at the computer screen. I'm conscious of it. However, a robot could look at the computer screen and react to stimulus, but still not be conscious. I think this sums it up pretty well. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/consciousI don't get why you disagree that the brain is what causes consciousness. You'll listen to whatever scientists tell you, except that.
Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 10/15/06 21:18.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: Consciousness
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#78598
10/15/06 21:47
10/15/06 21:47
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Joined: May 2002
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Berlin
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consciousness is an illusion made by the brain, and I think for most lifeforms (99%) with brain (officially). That means we have no choice. But then again laws (civilisation) wouldnīt work so itīs wrong to publish that knowledge. That means everyone has a will and is responsible for his nonsense. In anyway there is one provement for the existence of the "will" and 999 provement against. And the dilemma is that both have the same weight. The other dilemma is that I am maybe offtopic  PS: Please donīt be cheap and say, civilisation works, so humans must have a will. Nonsense... Humans believing in a will make the civilisation. That is if course not the same as having a will. PS2: Of course having a will is a very fine thing. Even if itīs an illusion itīs a nice one. Just because something is unreal it isnīt bad.
Last edited by EX Citer; 10/15/06 21:51.
:L
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Re: Consciousness
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#78599
10/16/06 00:11
10/16/06 00:11
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
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Quote:
You'll listen to whatever scientists tell you, except that.
Uuhhm, hate to disappoint you, but no.  Infact, scientists do not even agree on this subject. Everyone seems to agree though that the brain processes a lot of impulses (practically all, except those 'reflex impulses') and also makes sure an 'appropriate' action will happen.
Quote:
Consciousness is an awareness, or understanding of the action/reaction, per se.
Yes, but that's what your brain makes believe .. It's still just a reaction. Infact, it's the result of a double reaction. You think about looking at the screen, you've just seen it. And you are thinking about it again. Does that really make you aware of your action? Your brain thinks so, but he's just registrating the second reaction on 'looking at the computer screen' and gives as a reaction 'hey I'm thinking about looking at the screen'.
It's still just a reaction. Give the brain enough impulses and it'll probably react quite complex to it, still doesn't change the fact that the final result is simply the reaction to all those individual impulses ... We don't know yet exactly where 'ideas come from' yet, but if it's mathematically and chemically speaking simply the result of an equation, then what exactly makes us different from a robot? Illusions fed by our brain...
Quote:
For instance. When I'm looking at the computer screen, I'm actually looking at the computer screen. I'm conscious of it. However, a robot could look at the computer screen and react to stimulus, but still not be conscious.
That's where emotions come in too btw .. a robot can be aware of it's environment too (sensors telling him how far away obstructing objects are, if something is moving etc.), however lacking emotions it will never react to the events like we do. It doesn't have a trillion billion preprogrammed reactions to randomly choose from either, we sort off do ...
Quote:
the conscious, Psychoanalysis. the part of the mind comprising psychic material of which the individual is aware.
Not the brain ... the mind. MIND; (in a human or other conscious being) the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills, perceives, judges, etc.: the processes of the human mind.
The link between mind and matter has never been proven, that's my problem with the brain being the seat of our consciousness, if there even is something like that. 
Cheers
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Re: Consciousness
[Re: PHeMoX]
#78600
10/16/06 06:20
10/16/06 06:20
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
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Quote:
consciousness is an illusion made by the brain
Um, an illusion provided to what? Our brains? But then what's the difference? You say we're not conscious, we just think we're conscious. But since I'm aware, whether its by an illusion or otherwise, what does it matter?
What you're trying to tell me is that my consciousness isn't real. But since I experience it every single day, you're going to have to do better than your poor illusion reasoning.
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Uuhhm, hate to disappoint you, but no. Infact, scientists do not even agree on this subject. Everyone seems to agree though that the brain processes a lot of impulses (practically all, except those 'reflex impulses') and also makes sure an 'appropriate' action will happen.
I would like to know which scientists are unsure about whether or not the brain is conscious.
Quote:
Yes, but that's what your brain makes believe .. It's still just a reaction.
I'm not saying it isn't just a reaction. Its a complex set of electrical reaction something-or-others. The point is that it exists, regardless of whether or not its a reaction. What you're trying to tell me is that my brain is only convinced its conscious, but I don't quite get the difference.
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We don't know yet exactly where 'ideas come from' yet, but if it's mathematically and chemically speaking simply the result of an equation, then what exactly makes us different from a robot?
If free will is the result of chemical and physical laws, then its still free will. We're made from 'dust'. Its not supernatural, its just the the universe seems not only tuned for life, and seems to reek of design, but it also seems that the laws of the universe were meant to give unconscious matter a consciousness and free will. Which would make sense in a mindless, random universe.
Maybe we aren't better than robots. That remains to be seen. But if you give a robot a consciousness and free will, just like a human, then by its nature its part human.
Quote:
Not the brain ... the mind. MIND; (in a human or other conscious being) the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills, perceives, judges, etc.: the processes of the human mind.
The link between mind and matter has never been proven, that's my problem with the brain being the seat of our consciousness, if there even is something like that.
Since we don't agree about whether or not we're even conscious, then its going to be difficult to get anywhere.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: Consciousness
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#78601
10/16/06 14:53
10/16/06 14:53
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
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Quote:
I would like to know which scientists are unsure about whether or not the brain is conscious.
There are quite a lot of theories about the relation between the mind and the matter, and what or where exactly 'consciousness' is seated. Just search for it, 'theories on consciousness' or something along that lines. It'll show what I mean.
I don't think we're not conscious (yes, that might be confusing), I'm just saying that it could simply be an illusion, as a result of our brain's reaction. All we do is react on impulses, like you said, there's nothing supernatural about that. Some people tend to give the conscious way more credit.
Is a 'machine' that records what happens, and who's able to think about it and has a mimicked (self-)awareness, conscious?? I think so. I mean, it may not be alive, but it's conscious (to some extent), depending on how accurate the immitation is.
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Um, an illusion provided to what? Our brains? But then what's the difference? You say we're not conscious, we just think we're conscious. But since I'm aware, whether its by an illusion or otherwise, what does it matter?
You're biased. You start your reasoning with 'since I'm aware'. They use to say 'cogito ergo sum' ("I am thinking, therefore I exist"), but what if the 'thinking' is an illusion? Does 'thinking' about anything really matter? No, it's the actions based upon that thinking that matter (that will actually have a result), so the 'I am thinking'-part may not be that important for existence in the first place.
Okey, anyways, this is going a bit nowhere ... I meant illusion as in, the reaction of the brain telling us to 'feel conscious/self-aware' and thus we are thinking we're conscious. Thinking you're conscious and being conscious are two different things, so it matters a lot.
Simplest example I could think off to explain it even better: Thinking you can fly can be very different to your actual ability to fly.
Quote:
Its a complex set of electrical reaction something-or-others. The point is that it exists, regardless of whether or not its a reaction. What you're trying to tell me is that my brain is only convinced its conscious, but I don't quite get the difference.
Again, I'll point to the simple example I gave. You can't 'grab' the consciousness, which is why this is such a complex subject, it's in the mind so to speak.
It may be a bit confusing, but I do think that the brain is the seat of 'consciousness', personally I don't see any other option. However, the relation between the mind and matter isn't proven/researched enough, plenty of theories with different ideas... Some think it's a neat illusion and a result of processes in the brain, I simply tend to agree with that.
Cheers
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Re: Consciousness
[Re: PHeMoX]
#78602
10/16/06 16:40
10/16/06 16:40
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,541
Berlin
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Irish Farmer... So lame... Try to use your brain. The brain bases on reactions. Because everyones brain is build up the same way everyone is reacting the same + some random factors which we all know. You can sometimes say what someone will do before he does it because there are almost no random factors.
The Consciousness can be manipulated by chemicals and other physical things. That shows Consciousness is created by the brain and not needed to survive, because sometimes we have no Consciousness as some animals have no consciousnes.
I hate it to explain every little step to you. Think by yourself man! You could come to the same point if you had thought about my words. Annoying.
:L
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Re: Consciousness
[Re: EX Citer]
#78603
10/16/06 17:51
10/16/06 17:51
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
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@Phemox. You used some interesting words. I'm just curious, to see where you're coming from. You say that my brain is telling 'me' to be conscious. Between the 'me' and my brain, do you think there's a difference, or were you saying something else? I'm not questioning you to argue, I just want to know what you think. Based on previous posts, I take it that you're referring to the brain, and then also to the mind. @ex citer Can you say what someone is going to do before s/he does it? Perhaps, but we don't have the ability to quantify such a complex thing as the brain. For instance, our brains are hardwired to want sex. Yet some people choose to be celibate (sometimes their entire lives). You're right, the human mind can be predictable, and we are at the mercy of matter, and other influences. But that's what makes our consciousness and will all the more amazing, I think. Regardless of whether or not we were designed or evolved. Quote:
I hate it to explain every little step to you. Think by yourself man! You could come to the same point if you had thought about my words. Annoying.
Its just a discussion, relax.
Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 10/16/06 17:51.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: Consciousness
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#78604
10/16/06 18:18
10/16/06 18:18
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
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Between the 'me' and my brain *might* be a difference indeed ...
Mmm, how could I not start explaining this while making it so complex that I don't understand it myself anymore heheheh ...
Perhaps this would explain;
Let's assume for a moment our brain is very computer-like, just for simplicity's sake.
When that 'computer brain' processes incoming information, at it's core it'll use 'zeros and ones', however that's not useful without printing it to the 'screen and display it', so a reaction can be triggered.
I think there's no 1 on 1 relationshipt between receiving an impuls and getting something printed out on screen. Not everything the brain processes needs 'thinking' so to speak. That's why I think the brain makes us conscious about things, that apparently are 'more' important. This filtering is what interests me a lot, and also one of my arguments to say our brain activity is much more a 'input-output' system than we would think.
I have to admit my head starts spinning when I think about this little 'theory' too much, so hopefully this wasn't too confusing. By far, the problem of all this, more or less, is the complexity of our brain's output and the resulting reactions ...
Cheers
Last edited by PHeMoX; 10/16/06 18:20.
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Re: Consciousness
[Re: PHeMoX]
#78605
10/16/06 19:26
10/16/06 19:26
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,541
Berlin
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 (where is the crying smiley here?). It's like one of these drugs. I donīt want to discuss, but I have no will and have to. I donīt know why. Some of my teachers would say - I do it because I WANT, even if I say I donīt - But I realy do not want. Like a drug (like alcohol(!) or nikotin(!) for example).
:L
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