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What's next? #96739
10/31/06 18:50
10/31/06 18:50
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
jcl Offline OP

Chief Engineer
jcl  Offline OP

Chief Engineer

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
I normally don't use polls for determining our development planning. But as the new light system and the ABT are now mostly finished and in beta test, I'd like to know your opinion about which of the next planned features is most important for you. Please take a minute to fill in the poll. Thank you.

Your most important feature
single choice
Vertex Weights
17%, 53 Votes
Soft Shadow Shader
37%, 113 Votes
More Textures & Shadows for Terrain
17%, 52 Votes
2D Improvements
13%, 41 Votes
Decal Manager
16%, 50 Votes
Total Votes: 309
Voting on this poll ends: 0 seconds ago
Re: What's next? [Re: jcl] #96740
10/31/06 19:17
10/31/06 19:17
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,875
broozar Offline
Expert
broozar  Offline
Expert

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,875
what does "more textures for terrain" mean? i guess it's not about textures, but about layers and the possibility to use more than 3 textures in the multiTextureTerrain shader, am i right?

"shadows for terrain" -> i hope the "soft shadows shader" will run on terrain as well, so i chose the shadow solution.

Re: What's next? [Re: broozar] #96741
10/31/06 20:20
10/31/06 20:20
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,013
The Netherlands
E
Excessus Offline
Expert
Excessus  Offline
Expert
E

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,013
The Netherlands
It seems from these (preliminary) results that there is alot of interest in the soft shadows. I don't know how much research you have done regarding shadowmapping, but from my own experiments it turns out to be non-trivial. Not sure if you need it, but here is some advice:

For the last week or so I have been working on a shadow mapping shader. They are not quite soft shadows yet, but as it turns out that is the least of the problems. When using the shader on any scene larger than the one you can see in that thread, serious aliassing problems appear, even when using a huge shadowmap. This is not just a problem of my shader, but a general problem of shadow maps.

Are you planning to create the shadowmapping shader for sunlight, or just small spotlights/omnidirectional lights? Spotlights are not so difficult when they are used on a small area and distance. The same goes for omni lights, but here you will have to use a cubemap or a Parabloid map. Sunlight/directional lights are the most difficult.

Problems arise when a single shadowmap pixel is projected on multiple screen pixels. This happens when either the surface is (nearly) parallel to the light direction(so there is little space for that surface on the shadowmap), or when the shadowmap resolution is simply too low to cover the area. Another problem is that of 'surface acne': false self (un)shadowing. This happens because of limited numerical precision in the shadowmap or the calculations.

To solve these problems, there are basicly two solutions:
-warping: using a different projection matrix to make optimal use of the shadowmap space.
-partitioning: partition the scene/frustum in some way and using a seperate shadowmap for each one.

Here are some papers on warping and partitioning techniques that look promising:
Parallel-split shadow maps I'm currently implementing this, I can send you my code (although it's quite messy at the moment..).
Perspective shadowmaps First warping technique. Seems to work OK but also difficult to implement. Nevertheless, it's usefull to read this to understand the other warping papers better.
Trapezoidal shadow maps Looks like the best warping technique atm, but it's patented (just like the z-fail shadows implemented in the beta, btw!)
Light space persective shadow maps This is another goodlooking warping technique that is not patented.

There are tons of other papers adressing these problems, but many cannot be implemented in hardware/realtime rendering or simply don't seem to yield good results. Hope this was of some use..

Re: What's next? [Re: broozar] #96742
10/31/06 20:20
10/31/06 20:20
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,558
HK
V
vlau Offline
Serious User
vlau  Offline
Serious User
V

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,558
HK
Same here, I choose "More Textures & Shadows for Terrain".

Re: What's next? [Re: vlau] #96743
10/31/06 20:36
10/31/06 20:36
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
Blattsalat Offline
Senior Expert
Blattsalat  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
Very hard to decide. I picked "vertex weighting" because it is essential imo and we cant get to the next artistic step without them.
main reason is because all updates so far are focused on scene managament, lightning and code and i am afraid if this gets put asaid again we will have to wait another year for it.
Also a benefit would be: once it is done its done. It wont need lots of updates and fixes and shouldnt cause major errors. lightining, shadow aso sound more "fragile" to me and would also take longer to work on all systems.

as said, its very hard to pick from (kids in a candy store) and i wouldnt mind any of them.

a personal note:
After observing the last few weeks and months i have the feeling that conitec is investing a lot more power and energy into gs and especially into the updates.
it looks like they take the user complaints about long update-less times very serious and try to solve it. (reminds me of the first years i spent with gs)

I am sure i am not the only one who likes this new-old way.

cheers


Models, Textures and Levels at:
http://www.blattsalat.com/
portfolio:
http://showcase.blattsalat.com/
Re: What's next? [Re: Blattsalat] #96744
10/31/06 20:59
10/31/06 20:59
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
Senior Expert
PHeMoX  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
I don't want to be kiss-ass or something, but the last two updates have been great. Sure, one of them took a long time, but look at what it brought. I would like to see the shadows on terrain feature, especially since I'm leaning more and more towards a 100% model-only approach. With the required features for this almost in place, i think it would be a logical next step.

I like the other features about the same though, so choosing between them is very difficult.

Cheers


PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
Re: What's next? [Re: PHeMoX] #96745
11/01/06 04:24
11/01/06 04:24
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 96
L
lyingmime Offline
Junior Member
lyingmime  Offline
Junior Member
L

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 96
Vertex weights are essential for decent bones animation, but I'd also really love to have size prediction and speed-up for truetype text (2D improvements)! Imagine being able to automatically insert line breaks without resorting to a fixed-width font!

Re: What's next? [Re: lyingmime] #96746
11/01/06 05:30
11/01/06 05:30
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,320
Alberta, Canada
William Offline
Expert
William  Offline
Expert

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,320
Alberta, Canada
Quote:


Vertex weights are essential for decent bones animation, but I'd also really love to have size prediction and speed-up for truetype text (2D improvements)!




Basically what i'm thinking. 2d Improvments can really help speed up things(since i'll be doing menus eventually, eww..). So I voted for that, but vertex weights are very important as well. The rest is visual, which can wait a bit(if picking one of them, I choose softshadows).


Check out Silas. www.kartsilas.com

Hear my band Finding Fire - www.myspace.com/findingfire

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Re: What's next? [Re: William] #96747
11/01/06 08:00
11/01/06 08:00
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank Offline
Senior Expert
Machinery_Frank  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Wow. That is hard to decide. As an artist I would like to see vertex weights and soft shadows.

But as a game creator I really need decals that bend around corners as well.

I hope that all that comes. I am optimistic and believe that these features can be faster created than a scene manager and a lighting system.

But besides the poll I am happy to hear that the scene and light manager will be finished very soon.

Regards,
Frank


Models, Textures and Games from Dexsoft
Re: What's next? [Re: Machinery_Frank] #96748
11/01/06 08:15
11/01/06 08:15
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 893
Melbourne, Australia
Matt_Coles Offline

User
Matt_Coles  Offline

User

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 893
Melbourne, Australia
decal manager and soft shadows for me

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