Originally Posted By: Dooley
The Quran is the evidence. It claims that it cannot have been written by men, that it was inspired by God.

So the Quran itself claims to be written by god? And there is no evidence that it really has been written by god?
The Quran is no evidence.

Originally Posted By: Dooley
The problem is that evolution is taught without mentioning even the possibility of a designer.

I think we agree now that evolution is not about the origin of life, so mentioning the unlikely possibility of an intelligent designer would be like saying the earth is flat in a French lesson wink

Originally Posted By: Dooley
I don't have any problem with teaching evolution as a theory in a mosque.

I must admit that I didin't expect that answer. So you believe in creationism AND evolution?

Originally Posted By: Dooley
Sadly, many religious authorities have not paid heed to this command. But as I mentioned before, it is not only religious authorities who do bad things to people. Hitler did bad things in the name of National Socialism, Stalin did bad things in the name of Communism, early Americans did bad things to the natives in the name of 'Manifest Destiny', the list goes on and on. It's a problem of humans getting greedy, not of religion.

So Hitler is bad but national socialism is good?

Originally Posted By: Dooley
Also, there are scientists who claim that due to the complexity of the cell, it's so unlikely that life could have emerged by chance, that the idea of a designer is plausible. It is an idea, which like any scientific hypothesis, requires study and research. The Big Bang is an idea, we don't know for sure exactly how or what happened. We cannot yet prove that it happened, or how it happened, yet it is taught in science classes.

Can you tell me the name of one of these scientists?

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As I've said before, I don't think 'creationism' as it's taught in the Bible, should be taught in science class. However, I do think that the idea of a designer is a viable hypothesis which should not be left out.

We don't know exactly how life came into existence. In school I have not yet been taught any of the many theories, so I think I will never be taught one. So what makes your hypothesis, that a wizard made it without even telling where that wizard comes from, so special that it should be taught as truth?

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I've said it before, but I will explain again. I don't think you can prove God's existence. However, I think there are things in the universe which point to a God, or designer being there. One of them is the complexity of life, one of them is the order and harmony in nature, like cycles of day and night, the exact timing of the sun and moon, the way water evaporates from the sea, and falls as rain on the land. These are not 'proof' of God, but they indicate His existence to me (and many other people).

Complexy and beauty aren't any evidences for anything. If a jar falls down and you see the way how complex the shards are spread around the floor, do you think that an intelligent being must have aranged them?

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Please provide one proof that God does not exist...

You are the one who claimes something and must prove it, not vice versa. I already posted a disprove for god (that one with god changing his perfect opinion).

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If you're talking about miracles, that's a different story. There is more than one way to understand miracles. One is that since God created the laws of the universe, He is also able to suspend them whenever He wills. Another is that the miracles which are mentioned, are actually events which occurred within the regular laws of physics. The miraculous part is that they happened exactly when they were needed, i.e. God arranged these events to happen in advance.

Let me give you an example:
In the Quran, there's a story of the prophet Jonah, who is washed up on an island after his unfortunate encounter with the whale. The Quran mentions that God caused a tree to grow over him. Many Muslims view this as a miracle, i.e. a tree just suddenly grew very quickly over the prophet. However, another way to look at it is that God just made sure a seed would land in that spot, 20 years earlier, so that a tree would be there to protect the unconscious prophet from the elements.

But as humans can influence in that process, god would have to know how humans will act. That contradicts to a very basic claim of your religion, the free will.

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As for feelings, what are they for? Don't tell me you never acted on a feeling. You eat food, right? Do you go to the lab and have x-rays done on your stomach, to make sure you're really hungry before you eat?

The point is that feelings can tell us things that are just as important as science. Can you prove that your friend actually likes you? Did you make him take a lie detector test? How can you know for sure that your friend is not secretly your enemy, and he's just waiting for the right moment to cheat you?

Feelings are a mixture of hormones and thoughts. What's so special about them?
And you already soid it, I could make my friend take a lie detector test, to prove or disprove whether he really likes me.

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You have not read anything about Islamic government. First of all, the Quran does not specify what type of government Muslims should have, but it does make it clear that decisions should be made by mutual consultation, in Arabic 'shura'. This is similar to an election or vote, but keeps the final decision with the leader. The point is, the leader is supposed o be listening and understanding the people, it's not just a one way street.

"...but keeps the final decision with the leader"
That sounds like a dictatorship with advisers.

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Even if you wiped out all religions from the world, and nobody could even remember anything about them, you will still have some people getting greedy and killing people in the name of some other concept... maybe science

"I arrest you in the name of the allmighty god!"
"I arrest you in the name of science!"
Which one could make people obey better? wink

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I agree with you that if a religion is based upon lies, then it is a bad thing.

"Verily those who invent a lie concerning Allah will not succeed." (Quran 10:69)

So I just have to circulate some rumours about Allah and if someone believes that I disproved the Quran? That sounds easy.

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To take it further, if a prophet came to you, and showed you a miracle, and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe it?

I'd most likely think that he uses magic tricks, but first let's come a prophet doing miracles at all wink

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Let me provide an example:
There is a person who murders people. He murders them and he takes their money and he lives off of this method. He thinks murder is good, because without it, he wouldn't know what to do. Prove that murder is wrong.

For the record, I believe that murders is wrong for two reasons. First, I have a very bad feeling when I hear of someone being murdered. I 'feel' it is wrong because I wouldn't want it to happen to me or anyone I know. Second, I believed the prophets, when they said that God commanded us not to murder.

We have feelings for a reason. I don't believe that all truth is something that can be proven or disproven, it is intuitive. If you don't agree with this, please prove that murder is wrong.

Moral feelings are made by evolution and selection. Because if we wouldn't have morality and would kill each other humanity wouldn't have survived. What exactly this morality is, is mostly rather acquired. If people get taught you shall not kill, but if god wants you to you must kill, people might kill in the name of their god with good conscience. So there is no absolute morality. But the majority of all people would call that the murderer insane, because his morality differs too much from the common.





Originally Posted By: TriNitroTuene
Well this is just a different mind set, my mind knows that matter couldn't have come into existence by itself.

Why not?? But god could??

Kubetris
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