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You claim that religion is bad, because it seeks to control people. That's fine, If that's all religion does, then it is bad. However, what scientific proof are you using to conclude that something is bad or good?


Good? Bad? That is morality. Morality is not scientistic provable like if an apple falls down. It is defined by the culture. What is good in one culture can be bad in another. There is also not just good or just bad.

I am bound to the western morality. Because i grew up here. And i am bound to the laws of my country. Which is also a moralic thing. When i break a law then it is bad. But i have also a personal definition of good and bad.

When a system limits me where it shouldn't limit me, then this system is bad for me. When this system tries to control me, then this system is bad for me. When this system for example tells me that it is forbidden to use condoms, when it tells me how i have to have sex, then this system is very bad for me. When this system forbids me to drink wine or to eat pig meat because of religious reasons, then this system is bad for me. Especially when this system is based at lies and fakes. And that is the case with all religions.

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I agree that murder is bad, but I believe this because I feel it. Do you also feel that murder is bad? If so, is that enough, or do you need to somehow 'prove' that murder is bad?


Proof if murder is good or bad? That one is a moralistic thing too. Unprovable.

You are still bound too much at your black and white thinking. I also think that murder is no good thing. And am personally a pacifist as long nobody tries to kill me. But that is all a thing of definition. What when i would've killed Hitler? And murder is even official. Every country has an army. Now what is war? Drinking coffee? At that point murder is good. So what was it before? Murder is bad? wink

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I also agree that forcing people to 'believe' something is wrong, I don't even think it can be done. Do you agree with this? If so, why? I believe it is wrong to force someone to believe in something, because I would not feel good if someone did it to me.


I am not this sure what you want to tell me here. Are you ignoring the fact that people got killed because they said they don't want to believe in this or that? Witch burning is history. Holy wars are history.

Or do you want to tell me that everybody is allowed to believe in what he wants to? That is my personal opinion. In his private environment though. And as long as this doesn't damage others. Creationism and Intelligent design does not belong into school. That is faith, not knowledge. And disproven anyways.

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Why do you think it's wrong to force someone to believe in something? Have you seen 'proof' that this is bad?


Proof that something is good or bad is not possible. It is a moralistic thing. A definition thing.

It is wrong for me to force somebody to believe in something because you betray him. It is wrong for me to force somebody to believe in something because there is no need to believe. There is knowledge.

Core question is, why shall i believe when i can know? Why shall i listen to lies when i can find truth? Faith will always loose against science when it comes to truth. Because science is provable.

And religion gots disproven by science. Which is the reason why they came up with Creationism and Intelligent design. Religion is on its way to fit itself to the unprovable areas. A wise decision when religion wants to survive. Unprovable areas cannot be disproven. And that is the only place where religion still has a chance to survive smile

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My point is that some truths are things that are self evident, and do not meet the criteria for being proven or disproven.


No! When something is called true, then there is also a false. When there is true and false then there needs to be a proof for true or false.

You still tell me that i have to believe when you say this to me. But i want to know. Believing is not enough for me, and never will be.



Last edited by Tiles; 01/04/09 09:48.

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