Sorry if I didnt get the conversation right and I know that im not part, but I would like to add something to the whole shader thing: A game doesnt need shaders, shaders dont help the game that much, for an example take the beauty of project offset and then put it in a game where you have to look around with the arrow keys because the coder is too stupid to program mouse controls, nobody would play it, but tons of people would buy it. People that like video games dont care about graphics that much, more on gameplay and thats what I need. And for a game wiith A6 that is pretty sweet there and I love the look! I mean look at Counter Strike 1.x, it is totally out dated in graphics and there is still I dont know how many people playing it! Shaders do help the atmosphere and sometimes the look etc. But at this point you dont have to use shaders often, true you should use normal maps a lot because they have better results in performance than a high detailed model. One good example is the "Sneak Peak 2" that Offset Software gave us as a demo video for their current project (working title). They had just a flat cube as a floor and at he beginning it looked like a high detailed model with all kinds of tiles! But it was just a normal map applied to it and thats the way to do it. But over everything in an indie game comes the fun in gameplay, usually Indie games dont have the quality to be called AAA or AA but some of them can be A, rated by graphics, but people, if you are working in a non commercial or a small commercial team then look that your game is fun or intense and addicting, like CounterStrike: Your Girlfriend wants some special attention in bed but you just cant stop playing, thats how most people feel, but I still like sex more than games Bad example I know but Counterstrike makes a lot of money and it is just addicting even though there is not much to it, only good graphics and fun gameplay!