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I'm not quite following your reasoning here. I'd say we rather think that there's no right, instead of wrong. Every theory we could think off could be wrong in any or all aspects of such a theory, so wrong definately exists.



I was talking in terms of truth, ideas, and morals. Not scientific discovery. Gravity exists whether or not we know it. No one argues that. But we do argue over the nature of truth and morality. I say we don't know what's right because we're not the source of right and wrong. Atheists say we are the source of right and wrong, and because of that there is no right and wrong.

Not to kickstart the relativism debate. I'm just pointing out the difference in beliefs.

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If time doesn't exist at one point, that would mean that absolutely nothing happens in the infinite nothingness for an infinite amount of none-existing time.



That's the way I see it.

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There's one problem though, can such a thing even exist?



Well...that's the difficult part. But it raises some interesting questions. If God didn't create us, then it was an infinite regress of natural events that lead to the creation of the universe. If God created everything, then at some point there was nothing, and it all sprouted out of his creativity from such a state as timeless time, and matterless space, and spaceless....ness.

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Infinite none-existing time?



This isn't a problem for theists who know that God can create time. I just bring it up, because excluding God on scientific grounds, there CANNOT be a point in time where time doesn't exist or it won't exist forever. So either an infinite creator made time and time has a beginning, or time exists for no reason but it existed forever.

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When thinking abstract it could simply indicate the moment before 'time' started, but a start of something implies time too don't you think?



Any time before time would be infinite and there can be no time before the time before time.

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The moment before the start could, no even more correct 'would' be another time (a moment, an indication of a time related event(s)). (think of someone with a stopwatch, time within time, although this is more artificial, this is how you could comprehend it.)



Well....I don't know how you could nest time. I've never heard of any theories on this.

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General movement, relative or 'absolute' distances between objects and velocity make that there's time. There can only be no time, when nothing happened in the past and nothing will happen in the future, everything would have to be totally empty. (no objects, no relative distances, thus no 'time' between objects, no velocity either.)



Isn't it possible then that time for sure had a beginning? If all movement and distance as we know it was created at the beginning of the universe, then time would have started right at the beginning of the universe too.

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This assumption of divine inspiration from the writers of the bible can't be known for certain.



It depends on what you see as evidence. For instance, Psalm 22 starts out with "My God, my God, why have you deserted me?" That's according to my bible though, which has slightly modified language, but this is what Jesus said on the cross before dying. This isn't very conclusive, Jesus could just have been crying out one final reference to the Torah.

However, later on in the same Psalm, we see these words: Verse 16, "A group of sinful people has closed in on me. They are all around me like a pack of dogs. They have pierced my hands and my feet. I can see all of my bones right through my skin. People stare at me. They laugh when I suffer. They divide up my clothes among them. They cast lots for what I am wearing."

That would seem to be a strangely coincidental prophecy of Jesus as on the cross. I don't think its just a coincidence.

The psalms are accepted to have been written between 1000 B.C. and 400 B.C. So many centuries before Jesus even arrived on the scene, they were describing details of His life. I say between 1000 B.C. and 400 B.C. because they were constantly being added to so some psalms are dated between those two times.

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Infact, by Gods definition it's not possible to ever know something like that. Now, that's what I call paradox.



Well, if God used man to accurately describe Him, then He also was accurate in saying His word (the bible) is divinely inspired, which is what the bible says. But that requires the assumption that its inspired. I would just like to say that there are MANY many prophecies concerning Jesus in the old testament, some of them are generic enough to predict a lot of things, but others are rather specific and have been shown to have come true anyway.

I think God did that on purpose so that we could know the bible was inspired.

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Off course I'm a bit biased, but those humans have written something about that which they can't possibly know off, that is describing the nature of God



I disagree. They describe some aspects of His nature (His existence being beyond the nature of the universe, existing before time and that He will exist after time) but largely the bible seems to be His relation to humanity, which is a very graspable concept.

I agree though, spiritual matters are in many ways beyond comprehension, which is why Jesus spoke metaphorically in a lot of cases.

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he still get's described by human invented definitions.



Only so that we can grasp something about Him. I mean, you wouldn't describe evolution to a chinese person using english, would you? You'd want to speak their language.

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'God works in mysterious ways'



In other words his reasoning is Holy, and thus mysterious to the human animal which is subject to its sinful nature. We may wonder why God does things the way He does, but that doesn't mean He doesn't do things.

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human definitions only make us 'think we know', but we don't know.



I disagree. This sort of thing is common in conveying scientific ideas to the layman. If you want someone to understand a scientific idea, you don't use terms and things that they won't understand, you convey the idea in language they'll understand.

God would be cruel if He didn't 'speak' in a way that all people across all time could understand.

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I don't think there is actually a paradox here, since it doesn't make any sense to do calculations whilst thinking in absolutes when your talking about infinity (that's sort of beyond 'absolutes'). I don't say you can't make calculations with it, but it starts with little odd things like. Take infinity and do infinite-1, that would still be infinity, right? Right. Now let's do that calculation an infinite amount of times, what would happen to infinity? In my opinion exactly nothing, since the first infinity -1, still is infinity.




Which is why I posite that at least in cases like these, infinity cannot exist in nature. But I don't know. While I wouldn't mind if the universe was infinitely large, I would have a hard time accepting that conclusion, since we would be an such a small, insignificant corner, it would be impossible to tell what the universe is like trillions of trillions of miles/kilometers away.

This is a fun discussion.

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