edit: Phemox! I think I thought your post was by someone else. So I might have said some things that didn't apply to you, but I don't remember anymore, and I don't want to go over my post again.

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Yeah you're absolutely right. That was regretfully a cheap stab at you, and wasn't very good form either, so accept my apology-- it was my 8 o'clock over-caffeinated sarcastic manic flip-out.



No worries.

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But that you thought my suggestion of fostering awe of the cosmos is "not caring about anything"?



Well....I guess what I really meant was, not caring about the ultimate answer. Where did it all come from?

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I'm convinced that whatever circumstances (sure you can call them god too) put us here in reality wants us to explore and create and search for meaning, we are meaning-seakers



I agree.

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and that we must put now expand our search beyond the same 2000 year old pre-enlightenment primate mythologies into the new realms being discovered by mathematicians, scientists, philosophers, physicists, astronomers, astrophysicists and biologists.



The belief in God has been around for 4000 years longer than Jesus' death. Why you're fixated on this 2000 year value I will never understand.

Scientists haven't discovered God doesn't exist. So we aren't moving anywhere new. The question still remains, and must remain for all time since there are some things we simply can't figure out through science.

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If I were god, I sure would be annoyed to be worshipped by masses of people who did not look for a greater truth



What is this greater truth? I would be annoyed, as God, if people kept insisting that they need to search for some truth besides God.

You seem to think God requires something magical from us. Like we need to immediately give up on living our lives, and become something...else. You don't suddenly not care to understand anything. You don't stop searching for truth, in fact the truth then becomes more clear because you have a direction, instead of wondering wherever your mind takes you. You're starting from the source of ultimate truth.

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and did not delve deeply into the vast universe of creation.



God doesn't command in the bible that we close our mind to everything except the bible. In fact, the bible commands believers to discover truth. I can't remember the verse off hand, and I want to work on my game so I'll leave it at that for now.

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I would want them to prosper, grow and expand to their maximum potential, to become God-like themselves and not to fall into group-think, or blindly obedient to a small set of rules.



Please tell me how you avoid this by not being a christian? This is an inevitable aspect of being human. Although this distracts from the point of Christianity.

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If not, what do you think god wants of you and why?



Not that I could even if I tried, but I'm sure He doesn't want me to be God-like. If he created me to be God-like, then I would be God-like.

I think he wants me to be 'the light of the world.' To allow the Holy Spirit to 'flow like a fountain' through me. The world is fallen (before you claim arrogance, this includes me). As a christian its my job to spread the good news to those who will respond to God's call. Pretty simple. I already know what the good news is, so that's the only thing that seperates me from anyone else (well that and I have faith in Jesus' sacrifice).

Anything else is an abstract of human existence. My desire to become a scientist may not be directly important to God's commands, but He could use my job to reach others. Or to reach me...

I don't claim to know what God's will is for my life, but I have faith that it will be done.

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Let's role-play that you are god, and try to answer this question: What you would expect of humanity and why?



I can't roleplay as God, but I'll guess as a human. I would suspect He wants us to stop giving in to our sinful nature, to live in fellowship with Him, and to do what we were designed to do. Which includes our curious nature, our ability to actually understand things, so on and so forth.

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Infact, that's the irony here. What If there really is a God out here somewhere then I'm sure those blindly obedient people



I love how you set yourself up here as somehow better than others. Like you aren't blindly obedient to your sinful nature, or blindly obedient to the world's philosophy. Blindly obedient to the psychological barriers you've erected to keep God out.

What you've said here is just a way for you to self-reaffirm your own beliefs. How do you know you're not wrong? How do you know your philosophy and worldview are holding you back? In fact, according to you you're not more right than anyone else, so that means if you believe anything about anything, you're stuck in group-think, and you're blindly obedient to your beliefs.

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A.) are wrong about a lot of things, far more wrong than right



There is a lot of confusion and outright lying spread around. But everyone is accountable to God's word, the bible, and its the way everyone can hold other believers accountable.

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I wonder how that God's reaction would be when he finds out that they are worshipping a none-existing clone God instead of Him



There are a lot of different religions. The Quran claims the semen originates in the chest, so that excludes the other major religion.

I won't get into all of the religions, but the bible is full of prophecies that came true, wisdom that anyone can access, and a no-nonsense doctrine. What do you think God will say when He finds people have ignored the obvious signs He's left for everyone?

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Oww, I thought the avarage atheist according to the church listens to death metal and worships satan?



Nope, the average atheist doesn't believe in God, as the namesake implies. Churches don't spend time talking about atheists. They warn about letting things like death metal influence your mind. But that's all.

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Isn't that what you've been told? Not? Oww, now that would be a definate first!



I haven't been told that. Personal experience (almost everyone I know is an atheist) speaks clearly enough.

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There's no paradox, since this can be explained.



No it can't because without God the universe doesn't exist. I defy you to come up with a logical explanation for the existence of the universe that excludes a supernatural creator.

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If He isn't physical, well that causes some paradoxes... How can a none-physical being influence the physical



Well, by definition this non-physical being created the universe. So influencing the physical wouldn't be that difficult.

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(science more or less ruled out 'magic', so try again )



Ruled out magic, but not a Creator. If you want to claim that the creation of the nature out of the supernatural is magic, then you claim that the universe is magic and science disproved our existence.

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and how could we know or tell this, since we can't notice it. Again, the most logical explanation is that he doesn't exist.



Everyone is a witness to the creation so they're without excuse. [Romans 1:20]

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It's definately NOT arrogant to state we don't know and think you are wrong, it IS however very arrogant to think your God exists and you know this to be true as a fact, because you do seem to claim this...




I've offered a logical reason to believe God exists. Et tu?

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You've turned this argument around, just like the 'why would I believe in a God without any evidence' argument of me earlier(different thread I think). You've also stated that you could believe for exactly the same argument, that's very odd reasoning imho.



I've done no such thing. I made a claim (God exists and created the universe). I then provided logic to back it up and bible verses that I think solidify the God of the bible as THE God. You on the other hand have done next to nothing to back up your claim that God doesn't exist except you think it makes more sense. But that's just a claim. Typically, in a good debate, claims are made and then backed up with some kind of universal reasoning.

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If we don't know something at all,



Again, this is a claim without any reasoning. Tell me why you believe we can't know God exists?

I've already told you why we can.

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you can't go claim what you wish to be true, that's ignorance's finest and plain arrogance.



This is a very poignant statement.

Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 07/10/06 23:51.
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