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You think I do not know it better because you apparently do not think that evidence is required before believing ANYTHING.



When have I ever demonstrated this kind of thinking?

You can't just make assumptions about my belief and then just keep talking as if you're assumptions are true. That would be believing something without evidence.

Before you say that I have no evidence of God, I've given you evidence, but I'll address that later.

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Off course this makes my own believe superior to yours in MY opinion, why would I deny thinking I'm more right than you are? At least I've got good reasons for it ...



Reasons you apparently don't feel like sharing, as I've mentioned you have no reason to believe there is no creator, and you respond by going after the bible. Which wasn't exactly the [whole] point of this discussion.

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Infact, you still haven't told me why you believe in God, except your statement that you believe the bible to be true, but what kind of reasoning is that?



Well, you've either intentionally ignored what I've previously posted, or you don't agree with my evidence, but you haven't given a reason why.

For instance, the prophecy in Psalms centuries before Jesus was born about how He would die. In the psalms it says, "They peirce my hands and feet." Executing people on a cross wasn't even around back then. Please see my reference in the previous post. Later in that verse it talks about people drawing up lots for the clothing. Which is what happened to Jesus after being stapled to the cross. Kind of a strange coincidence.

I doubt you'll see this as 'proof' but its one of many reasons I find the bible to be likely. Amongst others are things we take for granted scientifically being shown to be true in the bible.

-The stars being greater in number than sand on a beach (certainly wouldn't look that way to an ancient). Genesis 15:5 Jeremiah 33:22 Hebrews 11:12
-The earth being round, and having rotation (day and night). This includes a reference to some that are asleep, and others are working in the field in seemingly the same moment. If the earth were flat, it would be day everywhere, or night everywhere. Luke 17:34-36 Isaiah 40:22 (Also seems to suggest that space is expanding, although I don't really think I agree with that).
-The earth is floating 'on nothing.' Job 26-7
-Jews and Arabs are descended from one man. Link.
-Predicts the hydrological cycle at a time everyone else thought rain came from the 'gods' with no further explanation. Why wouldn't Israel give an equally ignorant account? Is it possible that they're the true 'myth'? Job 36:27-28 Amos 9:6
-The bible also seems to predict that air molecules have weight. Job 28:25
-Predicts entropy (thermodynamics). Psalms.102:25-26 Isaiah 51:6
-Time had a beginning. 1 Timothy 1:8-9
-Springs in the sea. Job 38:16

There are more.

On the other hand, the atheist creation myth of evolution caused some dentists to remove wisdom teeth when they shouldn't have. Causing problems. Good work. But anyway, this isn't about evolution.....I'm just taking a stab.

These of course aren't the only reasons I find the bible to make sense. But they're among the reasons. The bible hasn't conflicted science on any testable hypothesis since it was written until today. In fact, its predicted some things which we later discovered to be true.

This alone seperates it from any other religion, and also lends it some credibility. In fact, every other religion appears to be a false branch of the Jewish beliefs. As if there was someone trying to spread confusion around or something...:)

Amongst the many other predictions about historical events (nations being destroyed), Jesus' life, and so on. Those are the clues that should pique our physical minds. But that's no replacement for a spiritual understanding of God's word, which is more important than any prediction.

Other reasons would include the no-nonsense doctrine. (For instance, the idea that nothing we can do will please God and the only thing that will save us is that He offers us salvation despite our complete inability to do what's right. Most other major religions focus on 'works' as a means of salvation. Jesus Himself showed such an amazing understanding of the Torah, that He continually put the religious 'experts' of His day to shame in such simple ways. What He says makes sense, etc.

Anyway, whether or not you find any of this interesting, or convincing is your deal, I'm just explaining why I think there is evidence. So no need to respond to my evidences, let's keep this to the point, because now I want to get the explanation I still haven't received. What possible reason could the universe exist without a creator? Tell me, what natural process creates nature?

But therein lies your problem. In order for a natural process to exist to create the universe, the universe must exist. You can't have the universe before the universe is created.

So, if you could just break it down logically, that would be great.

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Yes, and another indication that they don't have a clue about death metal in the first place



What is there to know about music that celebrates death? You can have the death metal style, without having crap for lyrics, and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with the music, per se, its the emotional effect it has on people. And you can't say it doesn't. People are puppets (in a sense), they'll conform to whatever strikes them as emotionally pleasing (even if its emotionally negative, or empty).

But that's really not the point of this discussion.

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just like christianity trying to prohibit the use of condoms in Africa.



The only thing I've heard is that the Vatican opposes condoms. Christians espouse something like the ABC policy, as far as I know. Abstinence, something else, and condoms. Roman Catholicism is in direct violation of many biblical principles anyway, so I don't care what they agree or disagree with.

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If they would have a better understanding of things, they wouldn't make themselves this ridiculous all the time.



A better understanding would server everyone better. Including 'free minded' atheists. If there is such a thing.

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Mmm, when you keep telling yourself that you can know things you can not know, then how could things get more clear when it comes to truth?



When did I say I can know things I can't know? I've said that some things are unfathomable, but the important things aren't unfathomable.

Apparently for you, things don't get as clear as the truth. I'm not going to debate this here, but you take the philosophical position that all truth is relative. So, for you there is no 'clear cut' solution to the truth.

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There is no evidence for a worldwide flood rather exactly the opposite,



I certainly wouldn't say there's conclusive evidence of a biblical flood. But there is evidence that evolutionists are wrong, and most of the earth points to massive catastrophe. Whether its the kind of catastrophe the bible talks about or not is up to the individual to decide.

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'judgement day' hasn't come yet either, the world still exists.



By this way of thinking, I can dump evolution out the window. You can't take a 'I'll believe it when it happens, or I see it,' approach or you'll have to throw many of your beliefs out the window.

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like the socalled prophecy of world war II



I never heard of this, and I would be immediately skeptical.

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Way to go, that's like saying, the color green is green, simply because we defined it as green, so it must be green. It still doesn't prove that it's actually green in reality though.



The point is that I'm trying to use a process of elimination to determine what the likely start of the universe is.

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but it says 'God is blablabla', that's even worse than stating 'we know ... ', where off course we couldn't possibly know and that's exactly where the bible gives it away!



I can't argue this because you haven't given a single example, or even a vague reference to why you believe this. You haven't even given me a logical reason that God can't be understood. Even if He couldn't be understood, that isn't a requisite to His existence. Whether or not the ancients understood atoms, they still existed.

The nature of existence is that things exist regardless of what we know, feel, or think about them.

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Anyways, that's quite irrelevant, but just because you see God as a requirement for the existence of the universe, doesn't mean he actually is.



Yes, but if I don't take the position that God is a requirement, no one will. So I'm coming from my own perspective. You can come from yours.

The reason I said this, was because I'm trying to prompt any of you to give a logical reason the universe could exist forever, or have created itself. I have yet to hear it. Criticizing the bible doesn't prove the universe can create itself.

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There are plenty of ways the universe could have come into existence, with or without a creator.



Like?

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I think a creator get's excluded automatically when you approach the question with pure logic.



You keep making statements, but you never back them up. Please enlighten me with this logic.

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How did or more important how could the creator come into existence?



If God can't exist for no reason, than neither can the universe and you've just destroyed your own argument.

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If you think the universe requires a creator, then so must the creator require one for the exact same reason.



Except we know the universe had a beginning. God doesn't have a beginning, so there's no room for a creator.

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So you tell me, what makes more sense?




You tell me. How exactly does a natural process create the universe? You don't need to know the exact science, it could be, "The universe has always existed." Or something. I wouldn't recommend that one because I can easily refute it, but something simple like that.

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Exactly where did you tell me?



I gave a reason time couldn't have existed forever. If it hasn't, then there was a beginning. You chose not to direct any of the logic I applied to the origin of the universe and instead attacked my belief in God and the bible. Which, while not completely irrelevant, lacked any substantial reasoning to explain what you believe.

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I've already explained why it doesn't automatically makes sense, infact the opposite makes more sense, and not because I want to be more right than you, but because of proper reasoning, not by fantasizing about what might be.



That's easy to say, but you have yet to give a reason. "The universe can create itself because who created God." Isn't a reason.

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How can we possibly know God's existence?



Like, say, if He left a book and performed undeniably impossible deeds, like raising someone from the dead (Jesus). You can say people lied about it, but when they not only risked their lives, but died by claiming this, I would have to ask what their motivation was.

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It's obvious that we can't know, since we haven't seen him or met him,



I haven't seen a supernova with my own eyes, but I believe it exists. That's not a reason something doesn't exist.

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Well, keep on 'proselytizing.



If I did have any notion of converting any of you, I would have been forced to give up on that a long time ago.

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You call me an atheist? Interesting. I call me an open minded being and I will believe in everything that sounds logic and is founded with evidences. God and creationism is not.



Do you know all evidence in existence? No? Then you don't know what is and what isn't based on evidence. You can say that you don't know of any evidence, of course, but you can't claim something does or does not have evidence definately.

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As a child I often called god to send me a sign. There was never a sign.



Tell me now, what sign would be enough to convince you of God's existence? Something we can comprehend (once again, not a square circle). I've asked this several times and other atheists have failed to respond.

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So I read books and studied alot of knowledge and found way more logic in it.



I've studied a lot of atheist philosophy and I have yet to hear anything that makes sense. So we'll call it even.

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It is not that you can call someone an atheist and then say: You must say that because you are one of them. We do not have rules like a religion prays. We are free and we think free. That's why we can learn from everything even from you.



But you'll never be able to consider any evidence in favor of God, because you're convinced He does not exist. So you're not free to think whatever you want. But if you're not sure whether or not God exists, then you're not an atheist.

The idea is self-contradictory (surprise, surprise). If you're free to not be an atheist, then you're an agnostic because you're not sure. But if you're sure there is no God, then you won't listen to any evidence, because you'll rationalize the evidence, in which case you're not free, you're stuck to your line of reasoning.

So you're not really free. You're stuck being an atheist. For a group of free thinkers, I have yet to hear anything new from any of you that I haven't heard from atheists before. Strange how that works, like you're all stuck in some kind of identical thought pattern.

Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 07/13/06 01:30.
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