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Here's the thing, we're going to forever go in logic circles (an endless loop if you will)



So my purpose in this thread was to have a friendly discussion on possible ways the universe could logically come into existence. But it seems you guys will come up with any possible reason not to actually discuss it. Its not that difficult. You outline ideas, potential problems, criticize them, and then come to a rational, logical conclusion.

It is possible, and logic NEVER leads you in circles. Otherwise it wouldn't be logic. If your thinking leads you in circles, its because your thinking isn't logical.

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because if you say that things cannot be created uncaused, then god needs a cause, and since god is by definition omnipotent, and you state that things can only become/create less complex things, there can be no cause - which makes your logic contradictory, and no god more likely.



You're getting ahead of yourself. Let's agree on a few principles first. Don't worry about God just yet, let's focus on the natural, and then we can think about God.

1). There cannot be an infinite regress of events because then time would be infinite.
2). If time is infinite, we'll never exist because at any point infinitely past, we will still have an infinity to go before we exist.
3). Thus, the universe has a beginning.

Can we at least start here? Can you agree on these things? Don't worry about God just yet. We aren't running around in circles, we're just cutting off some dead end ideas about the universe.

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Kind of reminds me of an old myth that the world rested on the back of four giant elephants on a giant turtle. When asked what the turtle rested on, a head priest would reply 'it's turtles all the way down'



Yeah, that reminds me of the atheist's view of universal origins.

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I have yet to see any evidence that an infinite regression of events is less plausable then an omnipotent being.



We'll get there, but first things first.

"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."