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The oldest biblical text known is one from 60-70 years after christs dead, so off course this is no evidence whatsoever.

A prophecy in a text that's written after all those things supposedly happened is hardly a prophecy.



If the oldest text was 60-70 years younger than christ, what was He quoting His entire life? You would think people would be immediately skeptical of a Messiah who was quoting a text that didn't exist.

Maybe you mean that the oldest copy of the texts is that old. I don't know that that's true, but the originals are much younger than Jesus.

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Maybe, however based upon what can be seen (not just where I live), it's likely that there would be more stars than sand on the beach. And that's what this is about, not the exact amounts.



I don't see how that pans out. Let's do some math. I'm a little rusty, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Let's say we take the view of the sky as a literal dome (not just a 2d view of indefinitely large 3d space).

For simplicity's sake, let's say this dome is half of a sphere, so we can come up with a simple surface area estimated by what it might look like from the ground.

From the view of the ground, this 'dome' might have a radius of, let's just say 7 meters. You can contest this if you want since none of this is exact, but I think I'm being generous (remember this isn't the actual radius of the sky, its what it might look like from the ground). I also think I'm being generous by giving it the surface area of half of a sphere, since you normally don't see all the way to the horizon. Now, let's calculate the surface area of this dome.

The surface area would be (4 * pi * 7^2) / 2

Which is about...308 meters squared (rounded up). So, now let's say we can see five stars per square centimeter, we would see 500 stars per meter squared.

Which gives us the ability to see 154,000 stars overall. How many grains of sand might one say make up a beach? Trillions? That would be reasonable, I think.

154,000 is 0.0154% of just 1 trillion. That's not even close. Again, forgive my math, I've been out of school for a couple of years (until this fall).

So let's be more generous and say we can see 20 stars per centimeter squared. That's 2000 stars per meter squared. Which overall is 616,000 stars. Which is 0.0616% of 1 trillion.

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and those Jews were mostly just shepherds with hardly any scientific knowledge.



Which would make it more amazing. The reason I'm asking for a source is because timing is very important and because specific claims shouldn't be made unless they can be scrutinized. Its not like specific details of ancient greek science is common knowledge.

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Archaeological records do not show any signs of larger organised groups of sedimentary populations in those periods, nor any records of any scientific knowledge, as opposed to the Greeks and Egyptians. So, infact it's more justified to ask YOU to come with your sources here instead.




I've already provided my sources, and Israel has never been a large nation. Many of these beliefs were not held by other nations, sometimes even America/Europe until further scientific investigation took place. So, most of this Greek stuff doesn't apply or matter. If the Greek's got something right, you would think we wouldn't need to relearn some of those things.

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Yes, nightshifts maybe? Lol, okey just kidding.





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No, you are wrong here. There is no evidence, saying there might be evidence doesn't change this and has no value either. He didn't state there 'never will be evidence' unless I've missed something, so his comment was perfectly okey.



Both of your comments are wrong. Nobody can know all evidences. Its really not a major point here, I'm just criticizing these 'grand' claims you guys make. Either you know all evidences and you know there is no evidence of creation, or you don't and all you can say is that there is no known evidence of creation. Which is at least a legitimate claim because then you aren't ruling out any future evidence, or evidence that you don't know of, or ignore.

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You should study the Quran and biology first before copy & pasting stuff from those pro-christian/anti-islamic pages.

They say this: '"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted - Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:" S. 86:5-7'



Well then what about these verses?

He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4)

First off, sperm is hardly a drop. Anyone old enough to have 'discovered' himself knows this. Or those males who have had intercourse with a female would also know. A drop is a small quantity of liquid upon which gravity has caused to 'drop' towards the earth. Now, I'm not going to dispute the use of language, its really not important. But semen does not originate in the chest (how else would you describe between the backbone and the ribs?) That much is clear. There are no two ways around this. You can say that the testicles originate in the groin before descending, but they don't descend from between the ribs and the backbone.

Let's examine the origins of the other 95% of semen.

1). Seminal vesicles - Located straight into your body about the middle of your butt cheek. Not between the backbone and the ribs.
2). Prostate gland - Even lower (closer to the testicles) than the seminal vesicles.
3). Bulbourethral and urethral glands - located around the urethra, branching off from the portion that is located within the penis. In other words, even worse than the testicles.

Really, I've always found it quite curious that christianity is indefensible, but those who dislike, disagree with, or despise christianity rarely fail to defend Islam. I don't get the connection.

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According to your thinking, the number "0" can never exist because you had to go over infinite many negative numbers before reaching "0".



That's a completely misrepresentative metaphor. Let's try it this way.

Subtract infinity from zero. Then from that number (whatever it would be), start counting up one number at a time, every second for eternity until you reach zero. How long will it take you? So in a sense, while zero exists, it can't be counted to sequentially from any number that is infinitely less than zero.

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I would agree that our current universe had a beginning. However thinking that this is the only universe and there is nothing else before or afterwards is not logical, but religious.



Mmm, yes, because its easy to see these other universes all over the place. It would be logical to assume that they exist.

In fact, you might then be able to answer a question for me that I haven't heard answered yet. QM theory states that because anything is possible at the atomic level, there's a universe for every possible outcome. But why? Just because anything is possible in our universe, doesn't mean that the other possibilities have occured.

There's probably a theoretical reason for it, but I haven't heard it yet.

I'm not saying that logically there can't be anything before our universe. What I'm saying is that whatever came before our universe logically didn't exist forever, or it runs into the same problems mentioned above.

Unless there's a way for this preuniverse or alternate universe to do a sequential series of things without the aid of time. I would like to hear how that is possible.

Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 07/14/06 23:02.
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