This is going to be somewhat brief. I don't really have so much time to post here any more. I've got some personal things going on, and plus I'm not really in the mood because my car was broken into and my CD player stolen...on my birthday no less.

That and I'm prototyping a game that (and this is VERY VERY VERY iffy, but I talked to the XBox rep whom I see at work and he said its worth a try) I'm hoping might make it to the XBox live arcade using 3d gamestudio to whip something up quick so I have something to show. So that will probably take a few minutes of my time (moreso than my little hobby rpg).

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No, eventhough skepticism is very good, basically that would be like seeing exactly how someone actually 'cheated'. Enough evidence to be able to state that it actually happened that way so to speak. So then it would be a bad methaphor indeed...

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Well, can you prove to me that they were lying? Otherwise we have two presuppositions. I believe they wouldn't lie, for all the reaons I find the bible believable. You, on the other hand, have a naturalistic presupposition. Both of our presuppositions are going to cause us to look at the text differently, and I can't really do anything about that on this forum.

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Anyways, before the exageration of the story it could very well have been very similar copperfield's 'magic', turning water into wine for example.

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But turning water into wine really isn't that important. How about a bigger one like healing a blind man that everyone knew had been blind his whole life? That's not a copperfield-style trick, you'd have to claim that its a lie.

If copperfield came and healed my cousin who has been deaf her whole life, I would be truly stumped as to how he could fake that.

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first of all i would say that thinking time is a line with a start and an end is wrong.

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We don't really know. Logically, I don't think it never had a start. On the other hand, there are many reasons to think it will end.

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maybe the question of the universe is wrong. maybe we shoulnt ask who created it but where.

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I don't find it useful dwelling on theories that either have no 'proof' or solve absolutely nothing. Its all philosophical. They're usually disproven before long anyway and replaced with another theory that will eventually be highly disputed or also disproven.

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thats not the case. the typical jewish punishment was probably stoneing but political prisoners had to be handed over to the protector and as other political and religous prisoners only the roman administration was allowed to call the death penalty and the standard for religious motivated riots and actions was and continued to be the cross.
eversince the roman invasion (one or two days before jesus was executed) and with all political prisoners.

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The point is that psalm 22 is very specific, with possibly one exception.

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dont you think that writing this passage in the most important scroll of the jews had some reason.
and dont you think that either the romans knew that, the jews and jesus who was raised "a little bit religious".

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I don't know. Is there any reason it would matter if they did? Amongst all of the other things psalm 22 says will happen? Or for that matter, can you prove they're not talking about hanging by the neck?

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the psalm also states things about swords and lions as well.
so either is all a metaphor or none of it.

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Nothing about swords in that verse. If you take the possible literal translation, it might say, "Like a lion my hands and feet." Which makes no grammatical sense. The problem is the use of a word (kaaru or something) that has since lost meaning. So it throws the passage into some kind of doubt. There are other versions that are more explicit, and refer to some form of peircing damage, or even something along the lines of people 'attacking' the hands and feet like a lion (as in they eat it? or they peirce it like a lion's teeth?). Of course, these other versions are disputed by skeptics, but if that one specific detail is thrown in doubt, I see no reason to cast off all of the other predictions. Ignoring the passaged about being thirsty, and other general descriptions like that.

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you think he knew that when he raised his voice againt the priests and held public hearings without the permission of the jewish leaders?!

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Jesus explicitly said that none of the 'the law' would go away, and that wasn't His intent. Regardless of the traditions at His time, I'm speaking of Him contradicting the bible up to that point.

Certainly He pissed off the leaders of that time by saying they sinned by trying to please God with their works, when faith was the only way to attain grace. For example, the story of the man who boasts while praying that he's a lot better than the bumb who's downtrodden, quiet prayers God showed more favor towards.

He questioned the Pharisees, etc, not the bible (or 'the law').

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exactly! because his whole religion was(is) based on this.

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You missed the point. I'm saying, just randomly claiming some nobody rose from the dead couldn't have been enough. Regardless of whether or not that's what the 'new' religion was based on.

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imagine some of those weirdo newwave religion leaders who take your money for a spaceship actually manages that some alien rocket would land on the earth and take you away.
man, i no time....hordes would follow like cattle.

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Miracles wouldn't be enough for me, but if this happened I wouldn't be surprised. Jesus prophecied that there would be many lies in the coming generations. Currently, there are. Raelians, mormons, JWs, etc.

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funny to see how you change your oppinion or the damand of evidence when you need it. i can remember sentences from you like "as long there is not 100% proof it cant be accepted as truth"

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No I didn't. I only demand some convincing evidence.

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anyway, you are comparing two different things here. while the whole atom theory answers things the whole jesus "theory" just opens more questions.

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Only for the atheist. If I was skeptical of atoms, I'm sure I could come up with questions. The amount of questions isn't parallel to the truth of the claim.

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While the atom theory allows me to build supernukes and ct scanners based on it i have to find workarrounds and accept the supernatural to make the jesus theory work.

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Jesus isn't a scientific theory. He's a spiritual savior. So if you called on Him to save you from your sin (remembering that God knows when you're serious or not...) and He ignores you, then that would falsify the salvation.

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you are not understanding how martyrism works. take for example someone like bin laden as an example how a way of live can bind and fascinate people to do whatever you say.

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You mention martyrism and then talk about Bin Laden? He's still alive last I heard, and he's trying to keep it that way.

Besides, that's not a very good comparison in any way. There are of course many many people asking you to believe what they believe. That there are numerous askers, doesn't mean that one of them isn't true.

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(and now i dont wanna hear any "how can you compare jesus with bin laden" bullshit)

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I really don't care. You won't have to answer to me for anything you do or say, so I'm not going to sit here and chastise you.

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jesus on the other hand got rid of this with the simple slogan: "read my lips! no more taxes!"
pretty smart and you are right. absolutely nothing the average citizen liked and exactly what the religous crowed wanted to have

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This is exactly opposite of what Jesus did, but whatever. I'm too tired to correct you anymore and this Jesus discussion is getting boring.

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a personal note: i dont get the point why jesus has to be the son of god

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Well, if it makes sense to you that your works are good enough to get you favor from God, then I would expect you to be a muslim. Otherwise, Jesus would make more sense. But its not scientifically possible to prove Jesus is the son of God.

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Where logic and wishful thoughts collide ...

(Why would people NOT lie about him? Have any idea how much he actually gained ?)

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He was stapled to a cross. Then His disciples were ridiculed, before pretty much all of them were murdered in various ways like also being stapled to a cross, or being thrown off a cliff, etc. We have an idea.